Imagination vs. Knowledge: What is the relationship of mental reality to physical reality?

Is there a line between mental reality and physical reality?  If so, where is it?  How do we locate it?  Does the line ever move closer to one and then to the other?

Einstein said, “Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.” 

What do you think of this?  Is one more important than the other?  Do you even agree that there is the one and alternately then the other?

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365 thoughts on “Imagination vs. Knowledge: What is the relationship of mental reality to physical reality?

  1. Hi Vin, I copied and pasted your post on the Scientology thread here:

    vinaire on October 5, 2012 at 11:10 am said: Edit
    I have made some changes at comment-4922. The changes are in bold italics.

    There are two issues here:
    (1) What is the relationship of mental reality to physical reality?
    (2) What is the meaning of “blowing the bank”?

    I think that everything boils down to LOOKING and AS-ISNESS. As I said in comment-4936:

    As-isness does not necessarily mean complete disappearance.

    As-isness of matter seems to result in energy.
    As-isness of energy seems to result in space.
    As-isness of space seems to result in unknowable.

    And,
    As-isness of energy pictures seems to result in experience.
    As-isness of experience seems to result in information.
    As-isness of information seems to result in hypothesis.
    As-isness of hypothesis seems to result in theory.
    As-isness of theory seems to result in principles.
    As-isness of principles seems to result in axioms.
    As-isness of axioms seems to result in self.
    As-isness of self seems to result in unknowable.

    It all seems to boil down to the understanding of SPACE. Hubbard equated SELF (being) with SPACE. We find both SELF and SPACE to be last frontiers beyond which lies the UNKNOWABLE.

    May be we can start a new thread on this. Chris?

    .

    Reply ↓

  2. I am exploring “as-isness” as something which we do only to the construct and deletion of filters within our own mind. This seems consistent except for the wave-collapse experiments. I don’t know what is going on there.

    • Application to mental filters would be an excellent application of the concept of as-is-ness.

      About wave-collapse, i don’t think that concept is properly laid out.

      .

    • Do you believe in everything that LRH believed in and talked about?

      You haven’t really explained your viewpoint in the post above. You are just saying that V’s statement is wrong. Well, that’s not good enough if you are interested in a discussion.

      You need to explain what makes sense to you and why..

      .

      • No, I don’t believe many things what he talked about, his reality is not my reality but I believe some of what LRH said…
        But you both know what he said about what as-is and in this case I what he say and that too is my reality.. When one as-is in session that brings on the cognition too, that mass which was there no longer exist in any shape or any form.. It is not transformed into any other energy…

    • Hey Elizabeth, I don’t know if imagination is more important than knowledge, but it surely seems as important to me. Both mechanics plus — experience — are required to make the game of life.

      I think about it in layers. I think that imagination and knowledge are related and then I would also add to that one more layer, experience. I think of experience as a layer of practiced knowledge.

      When I think about something, that is my imagination at work. Those thoughts are real and they truly exist in the physical universe but only at the level of my own mind which also truly exists in the physical universe. When I attach my imagination to “real world” concrete particles such as clay table the imagination becomes knowledge. When I practice my knowledge, the result is experience.

      Mental reality is where my own world begins. My experience of the physical reality is a more solid and more durable layer after that. Experience, I hope, might be something I take along with me when I return back home to that Greater Essence.

  3. LRH says in Phoenix Lectures:

    “Now let’s look at the various categories of Is-ness. We find that each one has a gradient scale and first there is As-is-ness. This is the first level that we encounter and is actually the disappearance level.

    “As we are content with and can accept things as they are, they won’t exist. That is absolute.

    “Why? The simple recognition of their existence would blow them into a consideration. A wall. What wall? When we really know what a wall is, there isn’t going to be a wall. That’s As-is-ness, and we can see that mechanically. We have a lower, mechanical strata on that which is a perfect duplicate. If we make a perfect duplicate of a wall — boom — no wall. All right, that may be just for the thetan but it’s certainly no wall. Anyway, I at least will lead you down the track to believing that you are not about to destroy the physical universe.”

    I have never seen a wall disappear in actuality. Some may believe that the wall disappeared for them for a second or two, but that is a very differnt phenomenon and it needs to be explained better than the explanation given by Hubbard.

    .

    • I can see as-is-ness operate at mental level as follows:

      There is a problem. It is causing a lot of anxiety to a person. If he sits down and looks at that problem thoroughly, he may gain a better understanding of the problem and his anxiety may lessen, or even disappear. But that problem won’t disappear.

      Let say the person now understands what to do to solve that problem. He still needs to get resources together, coordinate actions, and execute the plan to complete to make the problem totally disappear.

      Making the anxiety disappear is only a small part of making the problem disappear.

      .

      • Exactly, if the problem has reached the layer of being a physical reality. At this point, whether anyone likes it or not, for the problem to as-is, the problem must be addressed by physical action.

        Or, if the problem was mental only, then an auditing session, KHTK, meditation, counselling, coffee with a friend, might be all that is needed to attain an as-is or clearing of the problem.

  4. I believe that all reality is created at some level. Dub-in is a reality created at the mental level. This reality can be quite unknowing and it may appear very real to the person.

    Dubbed-in reality is different from the experience resulting from interaction with physical reality. Such experience makes major part of one’s mental reality.

    Seeing the sun explode in one’s auditing session, and then finding that the sun is actually shining out there poses an inconsistency. Such inconsistency needs to be looked at more closely.

    By the way, I don’t believe that there is exteriorization where some “spiritual element” separates completely from the physical body, Spirituality exists as kind of a pattern in physical parts. There may be some kind of static impression left in space if the physical part dies. But I don’t think an active spiritual element can exist separate from physical parts. Yet one feels that way. So, there is an inconsistency here that needs to be looked at more closely.

    .

      • To me, remote viewing is a visualization that comes damn close to the actuality.

        A visualization could be basically converting one’s data back into picture form. It could be going back up on the following scale:

        Sensory input
        Perception
        Experience
        Information
        Hypothesis
        Theory
        Principles
        Axioms
        Self

        Check out THINKING & THOUGHT

        .

  5. v.. “”””.When one as-is in session that brings on the cognition too, “”””
    No, I dont””’ NEED”” to give on example… I dont need to run a session…. you do know the tech… so you know what steps of as-is-ing. I belive this would end up in a deadend…

    • As I said earlier,
      “As-isness of matter seems to result in energy.”

      We may apply this to a session and say,
      “As-isness of mass in session seems to result in energy of cognition.”

      .

  6. vinaire commented on “Keeping Scientology Working,” A Critical Look At Scientology’s Most Sacred Scripture.

    Elizabeth: I did look in session and I have found different realities which you consider is imagination.. There are on the same subject immense amount of different realities. That holds true why the apple when let go falls toward the ground… and that FACT is only one reality… I have seen hundreds of different reasons beside […]

    Vinaire: I think this brings up an interesting question. How does one differentiate imagination from a reality derived from session? I am not talking about Elizabeth here. I have found that there is no poka-yoke to prevent dub-in in Scientology auditing sessions. E-meter can react on dub-in just as it reacts to reality. There are many examples of people who have deliberately produced F/Ns at examiner by thinking of something other than the session. .

    • We cannot know dub-in as such.

      But we can know inconsistency between mental and physical realities when there is one.

      We should not ignore inconsistencies or justify them. We should look at them more closely.

      .

  7. What is the difference between ‘mental’ and ‘physical’?

    The ‘physical’ is that which is tangible, and with which we interact through the sense of touch. This interaction is further supported by the senses of sight, hearing, taste and smell. What we think as ‘mental’ seems to be part of the unexplored domain of SPACE.

    We think of space as devoid of all things tangible. Space is not something that we can sense. When we talk about exploring space, we actually think of exploring things that exist in space. We don’t think of exploring space itself.

    It may seem crazy to think of space as a manifestation in its own right. This idea of space appears to be quite elusive as it is accompanied by the unthinkable, “If we remove space, what remains?”. Thus, not much thought has been given to the concept of space itself.

    Now, it is a new idea to consider space consisting of everything ‘mental’. Where do, thoughts, ideas, speculations, emotions, etc. reside? The mind seems to be operated by some software. Where does this software reside?

    One wonders what is the fabric of space like?

    Ok, then, this question is now thrown in for discussion. Looks like we should be examining the subject of space more closely.

    .

    • “If we remove space, what remains?”.
      I have looked at this question and it is interesting what I have ‘’’seen’’’
      It is emptiness, void of energy; no movements, no shapes, no colors, no sounds of course
      Which is unimaginable to a human.. Since the planet Earth is made out of all those things.
      The only example I can give what is VOID if one would walk through a ghost town, which has been empty of all living creators for a long time because the “time” flow can erase the human energy flows its traces dissolve by this I mean: that Natures ..the Planets energy flows are stronger heavier than the humans at the time and this strong energy flows can override the humans creative flows. But the Planets energy in comparison to humans is in HARMONY so to experience Natures energy is experiencing harmony… Human energy flows are not in harmony..
      Second example would be every person experienced this: winter time and overnight the falling snow blanketed everything under very thick blanket.
      The human creativity, its energies are over ridden by the cold— and the falling snow which is like cleaning powder coming down through the thin air eliminates the sounds which are of course simple energy flows, currents, movements…
      This of course, this partial emptiness can be experienced walking the streets of a big city at early down let say between 4-5 am among the office towers where the list activity exists at that time… Would be very noticeable and easy to experience void but of course that would not be a true void because as I said on this planet that do not exist…and buildings are created out of energy…But the streets are empty…
      Large Cathedrals have void inside of some kind since the created items are old and they don’t emanate strong energy flows and people do not go there to created but to empty self, and to connect to spiritual realm therefore this spirituality void of creation can be experienced in the churches….
      Of course the same goes for forests too.. One feels the space the creative energy flow of nature but it is void of human energy flows therefore that space for the human who is used to experience the heavy concentrated thick energy flows seems the forest, or being in the wide open spaces, void of humans these spaces seems ‘’ empty , hallow, vacant, free, clear.
      Here in these spaces one is spiritual… one can be nothing by leaving the human self behind … and be one with: become nature its energy flow and that flow in comparison to the heavy concentrated human energy flows is ‘’nothing.’’.
      So if we remove ‘’space’’’ which is everything created than we have a void…
      Of course this is my reality.

        • how could one create void? if something is created than that creation exist because it is energy… void is not energy… this is my reality.
          and THE UNIVERSE, ALL OF IT IS NOTHING more BUT ENERGY so where would be void in the Universe?

        • V.. I have revised my comment.. i hope this one is clearer..

          “If we remove space, what remains?”.
          I have looked at this question and it is interesting what I have ‘’’seen’’’
          It is emptiness, void of energy; no movements, no shapes, no colors, no sounds of course
          Which is unimaginable to a humans.. Since the planet Earth is made out of all those things and so is the Universe.
          The only example I can give what is VOID seems appears feels like to our senses: if one would walk through a ghost town, which was once very lively energetic once when we were there the last time by now has become empty of all living creators; humans for a long time: that space the towns would SEEMS void to the senses now..
          Because the “time” flow can erase the human energy flows its traces dissolve by this I mean: that Natures .. since the Planets energy flows are much stronger heavier than the humans was at the time and this strong energy flows can override the humans creative flows.
          But the Planets energy in comparison to human’s energy flows is in HARMONY so to experience Natures energy is experiencing harmony for any human who walks about in Nature which is void of human occupants. Human energy flows are not in harmony, human state is an aberrated state void of harmony.[ more auditing the person has, more of the harmony returns..]
          Second example would be every person experienced this: winter time and overnight the falling snow blanketed everything under very thick blanket.
          The human creativity, its energies are over ridden by the cold- thin air– and the falling snow which is like cleaning powder coming down through the thin air eliminates the sounds which are of course simple energy flows, currents, movements…
          This of course, this partial emptiness can be experienced walking the streets of a big city at early down let say between 4-5 am among the office towers where the least activity exists at that time… Would be very noticeable and easy to experience void but of course that would not be a true void because as I said on this planet that do not exist…and buildings are created out of energy…But the streets are empty… void of presently of humans so their personal space-energy is not cluttering the streets this would make the streets feel void of energy.
          Large Cathedrals have the sensations of void inside…[lacking creative energies] since the created solid items are old and they don’t emanate strong energy flows and people do not go there to created but to empty self, and to connect to spiritual realm therefore this spirituality void of creation can be experienced in the churches….
          Of course the same goes for forests too.. One feels the space the creative energy flow of nature but it is void of human energy flows therefore that space for the human who is used to experience the heavy concentrated thick energy flows seems the forest, or being in the wide open spaces, void of humans activities these spaces seems ‘’ empty , hallow, vacant, free, clear.
          Here in these spaces one is spiritual… one can be nothing by leaving the human self behind … and be one with: become nature, its energy flow and that flow in comparison to the heavy concentrated human energy flows is ‘’nothing.’’.
          So if we remove ‘’space’’’ which is everything created than we have a void… we would not have the universe…

  8. The universe is matter, energy, space and time… and not just energy. (This is per LRH and also per general observation.)

    All of these components… matter, energy, space and time… are created. (This is because the universe is created.)

    Void is space… it is created too. (Because empty of full, space is space.)

    According to my reality, a progression takes place from space to energy to matter. Time is the parameter for this progression.

    We may trace matter to energy to space. But what is beyond space is UNKNOWABLE (Ů).

    .

    • The universe do not care what LRH said.. The universe do not go the certain way as LRH said said, since what made you believe what all he said it true? Could he not make a mistake… was he not a human too? Did he dropped his body as a FULL OT who has regained all his powers and all the knowledge which go with that power-abilities?
      Matter is energy…. time is a consideration: therfopre it dpo not exist.
      Cant create void, because than it would be something and something would be matter-energy… Space is filled with matter-energy some kind or other.. but it is filled… might look empty for the ”’eyes”’ as they ”’see” but space is filled with energy of all sort.

      • @Elizabeth, Yes, what you write is sound: “Cant create void, because than it would be something and something would be matter-energy… Space is filled with matter-energy some kind or other.. but it is filled… might look empty for the ‘eyes’ as they ‘see’ but space is filled with energy of all sort.”

        It is the words that trip us up. Space is the trickiest I think I have run into so far. When I think of space, I have a sense of volume. If I put something in that space and then take it out, that is easy to visualize. But even if I think of shrinking down a space to like the size of a fish aquarium, then my mind puts things in the space — air or water, nothing but the walls of the space. always there is more space waiting on the outside of those walls. So to think of removing the space, this is unthinkable. It is over in that line of thinking that I abhor, unknowable. This is the very best example of unknowable that I have come across. It doesn’t lend itself to degree the way that all MEST, even infinite MEST lends itself to “degree of.”

    • Vinaire it is fine by me if your believes are same as LRH’s. I have no problem with that since I know on this planet how I see, what I see i am the only one who has reality on that.
      But I also know I dont need any agreement on my reality by others in order to make it real for me.. Agreements one only needs when one is not certain of what one belives in.
      I am certain of my believes but that will not make it written in stone.
      LRH made a mistake by not allowing others have their own belives.
      I have no idea if he ever said about anything: this is how I see this universe, this is I believe in but more likely your unverse it totally different from mine..
      But no matter how different each individual universes are auditing works equaly on every one of them.
      I believe that is true.. on that i would bet my last $… knowing I would win.

      • Hi Elizabeth. I think Vinay agrees that your reality is real to you. He doesn’t think your reality is wrong for you. This is a premise that we all seem to agree on. Vinay digs to find why he should believe that the separate imagination-reality of the individual should be real for everyone. If I know a little about you, I don’t think that you think your reality is best for everyone. That’s all.

        We all seem to agree on the usefulness of dissolving our considerations which create for each of us the experience of an uncomfortable reality. We all seem to agree that dissolving the ego is good for mental health and for embracing our fellows.

        We seem to differ a bit about the role of individuality at the root source of our essence. No one is arguing about what we will know, but we seem to be differing about defining who we will be in that dissolved ego.

        No one here is seems to be arguing for the authority of LRH. But LRH argues for the exaltation of the individual and Vinay and I don’t think that’s how it works and disagree with LRH on this one point. If you agree with LRH then maybe this might be your next item! (joking, but no really)

        The language sometimes buckles under the weight of these conversations. But me? Underneath the considerations, I believe your statement when you say

          “I am what you are.”

        This for me is what the language means. Our essence is the same and only these infinite types of consideration-based individualities makes us different from the Creator. (my words – might not hold for Vin or others). This is a clean statement of my religion at this time.

      • I am only interested in discussions where everybody learns. I am not interested in debates where one wants to make oneself right over the other person. I simply wants to put forth my understanding which is always evolving. I know it may be hard to understand what I am saying, but I am always willing to answer questions sincerely to the best of my ability.

        .

      • Understanding occurs on a gradient. Nobody is absolutely wrong. Everybody is somewhere on the road to truth. Focus should be on the subject matter and not on self or on anybody else.

        .

      • One’s concern should be with removal of inconsistency, and not with agreement. If this seems to go against the principle of ARC then that is an inconsistency that needs to be looked at more closely.

        .

        • Vinaire, This is an interesting and important comment. I have not paired these two off against one another before and the result is amazing. Related but are two different subjects with two different purposes.

          At first glance ARC seems to me a subset of leveling inconsistencies because leveling inconsistencies seems to bring about ARC however seeking ARC alone can take one off into an inconsistent direction; can result in a very in ARC state including inconsistent thinking. An example is the Sea Org where the ultimate ARC break of disconnection is being avoided at a cost of allowing their lives to be lived in chaos.

          It seems to me these should be done in this order: 1. Level inconsistencies; then, 2. Automatically brings about ARC (but in a constructive direction).

          ARC with inconsistent subjects is weighted heavily on agreement. (My writing is scattered, but my brain is firing and I just wanted to jot down some notes.)

        • You are absolutely right. An example of putting ARC above leveling of inconsistencies would be the kind of conditioning we see in the Sea Org and in Scientology. One is not-ising one’s natural perception of inconsistency and complying with an enforced ideology.

          But if one takes the responsibity of looking closely at the inconsistency and sorting it out fully, one may find that wrong data was being enforced upon one as part of somebody’s personal agenda.

          .

      • Individuality probably sums up as where one is on the road to truth. As one forges ahead on the road to truth the individuality changes as well. Those aspects of individuality that stand in the way of truth gradually dissolve. What is left is unknowable.

        .

        • you mean by “unknowable” that is God? Or something else, un-know-forgotten-given up..cant be seen with the eyes, become invisible hidden behind that invisible wall and said it is none existing..
          If something is left behind by any one than it is not unknowable because one can locate that something… because it is left behind therefore has to be something… so what is unknowable?

        • Unknowable is THAT, which can never be known. It can never be known because it denotes absolute and absolutes are unattainable. Unknowable is beyond beingness. If God is considered to have beingness then Unknowable is beyond God.

          .

        • Elizabeth, Vin usually means “un-manifested” or not MEST when he says unknowable. When you say “intangible-infinite” you mean pretty much the same.

          The words are cumbersome to describe such etheral topics.

      • Also, Elizabeth, I have a whole section on Unknowable on my blog under the category of Philosophy. I have tried to explain it in many different ways because I have been challenged on this concept again and again.

    • Wonderful! I hope you have a very fun and relaxing trip — get the synapses firing on all cylinders so we can hit it again when you get home!

      (Did Mrs. Argawala retire from her job or did her work load just double?!?! haha)

        • Vinaire have a wonderful time!
          I know about double work load, when my ex stayed home when sick or on his vacation. he used to drive meup on the wall, being bored.. i guess he missed all the activitie of his practise.. So I told him i will kill him before he retires.. no wonder we are divorced, i scared the daylight out of him… mind you he did not have much that in him… he was dead ears down and neck up… and he is 13 years younger in body than me… bloody hell… he was dead before he was born into that body… mind you he presented a great lesson…. fantastic things i had to confront because living under the same roof…ugggggghhhhh.

      • Thank you Elizabeth. My wife and I have good understanding. I happily do what she asks me to do. And I don’t put any demands on her. I enjoy my reading, writing and math, and don’t bother her.

  9. Chris… it seems i make lots of mistakes of late reading… it seems it is a new something… i have not figured it out yet… but when i am reminded that i have miss read, miss duplicated something that feels me with joy.. I laugh.
    Something to do with not bothering to look at the words….. i see them but I duplicate the energy they seat on… and that energy do not contain the same meaning for me as the words do…. but i am just starting to understand this… so i have no idea where it leads me… what cog.. will come about… so get use to me miss duplicating..

    • Chris asked.. Thank you, a great question…
      Elizabeth,” Do you feel that there is an imagination separate from a physical reality? If so, how would you describe that difference — where would you draw the line?””
      I have no idea Chris where that line is.
      It would be individual experience when the reality becomes reality. By this I mean: one has to erase mighty amount of crap “MEST” which seems very real to the person on EARTH since the occupants believe it10000%.
      When one audits out these believes assumption the confidence in this stuff [MEST] becomes shaky slowly disappears and one starting to realize yes something smells here: got to be a dead body under the flooring…nothing is right something is in fact very wrong….since what I see can’t be both ways, only one reality can be correct!
      But that uncertainty continues remains for long while because what one believes the newly gained reality as in cognitions has not been agreed by others, we have not gained total certainty yet, we have not found proof our self, it can’t be proved as in solidity, one can’t ask others and talk it over get on agreement or read about it, hear it on the 6 o’clock news which would verifies if it is true what I see, what I know what I have realized really-really true! Limbo time!
      The things one realizes that the cognitions are real and their contents have to be the truth: because we did believe in them from the very first we had one! and that is a fact!
      So one pushes on because the need to know grows which each session because finding it out and understanding that one lived in is a total illusion and was a prison and that is not easy to have.
      ONES HAVING-NESs is turning to loses! The values are gone: the solid rock beliefs are melting the ground one was standing on turning to quick sand!
      Than the certainty comes slowly because one has hard time believing the new reality because it is so different from what one believed in before and the body is in the MEST universe that makes it more difficult living in TWO DIFFERENT UNIVESES AT THE SAME TIME.
      But that is a challenge, a new lesson to learn from and that is the sessions for to do just that.
      But as a being moves into the Spiritual Universe AND HERE IS NO SOIDITY and THERE IS NO PROOF WHICH ONE COULD HOLD ON WITH HANDS!
      That is missing and that part is the most difficult to get used to, so more sessions are needed to get over that hump .Biiiiiig Huuump!
      But the knowledge, the certainty becomes stronger after each session that is inevitable because in the cognitions the truth is revealed discovered about this spiritual, intangible infinite universe!
      “” The trust in self slowly returns too”” and that is the greatest gain one can have: to believe in self no matter how others say one is wrong, crazy, pointing out that what one believes is not factual, not realistic, because it can’t be proven by one!
      Hehehe… the havingness returns and it is huge because it is not given by anyone… It is gained by self and it is very real!!!!!
      Nothing can shake ones reality, the believes in that knowledge one has gained since the MEST related believes-arguments are not real any more they can’t move destroy one newly gained facts knowledge.
      Cognitions are real what they contain is the truth… and that truth will not vanish.. Nothing can shake it, change it… can’t be as-ised.
      The MEST becomes what it is: thorough illusion deception a make believe.
      So what is real: the need to know-understand hunts one drives one and nothing else matter anymore but the quest !!! One turns away from the MEST.
      To me the MEST universe is like: I am watching a movie from a distance and nothing more… just a movie not even a good one… since movies are watched for the stimulation-entertainment and this one don’t do me a thing!!!
      The imagination is the MEST universe a dream a nightmare and it is very difficult to awaken from.

        • See, this is what I am getting at by asking about a line.

          Of course, personal reality is the more solid side of one’s imagination. It is the next layer which seems obfuscated to me. I am surely able to bring my imagination to life in reality as I’ve done this summer by building my garage. It is this line between inception in my mind and bringing the thoughts out here and making them a possible reality for anyone else to see that confounds me.

          Physical law allows me this but only under stringent rules of seeming Be-Do-Have. Am I crazy or what? What am I ignoring or missing here?

        • More likely there is a gradient rather than a line. The more that imagination gets agreed upon by other inputs, or by interpretation of those inputs, the more solid (fixed) it becomes. This provides a definition of solidity in terms of fixidity.

          Note that I have not mentioned ‘agreement from others’. These other inputs could be from other sense channels of the same person. ‘Other inputs’ seems to be more applicable than a generality of ‘other selves’.

          Hope this applies to your personal example in your post.

          .

        • The understanding that I have is to keep looking at that part of the whole, which appears to be inconsistent.

          Here the inconsistency is between the mental and the physical. Mental seems to be considerations based on other considerations. Physical seems to be considerations based on fixed inputs. So the actual inconsistency is not understanding the nature of these fixed inputs that determine one’s physical reality.

          Actually, when one is looking at what is really there without any personal bias, one is looking at these fixed inputs.

          Truth, in this universe seems to be made up of fixed inputs only.

          .

        • Fixed input seems to be that part of sensory input, which goes into resonance with one’s mental structure at macro molecular level.

          There can be more to the input than what we actually perceive. Our perceptions may be a function of the electronic distribution in the macromolecules.

          .

        • Oh! That is the right question. . . I am looking at it inside out. . . again with the self! The MEST came first and the self came after! So simple . . . and the world became round.

          So what of imagination reality vs physical reality? The imagination came after the reality? That can’t be right, can it? (I love the vertigo that comes when shaking stable data — it is such an indicator of imminent consistency levelling.)

        • The key seems to lie in fully grasping the difference between intuition and imagination.

          Imagination seems to depend on what one has experienced in the past. It is pure or flawed extrapolation from one’s past experience. It cannot rise beyond the bounds of that experience.

          Intuition is something very different. It seems to access a region not previously experienced. Here we have originality. Here a manifestation comes about that is totally original.

          .

  10. Hi guys, I am following the discussions as and when I can. I cannot explain this fully at the moment but let me say that the last bastion of illusion is a fixation on self. I have covered the subject of self in detail on my blog.

    .

    • Good to hear from you from sunny Africa! ‘ today here the rains has come in a form of gentle silvery mist… the terrain has become quiet its great need vanished…. every living thing is sucking soaking up the water droplets, the life it self..

        • Hi Elizabeth, haha, Not ignoring you! I was using my phone to ack Vinaire yesterday… really long day at work and I slept late this morning.

          I loved your post and find resonance within myself.

          I find that the universe is wide and my perception is narrow. My spiritual path leads to widening my perception. If I understand your words correctly, this is similar to your path. I am not finding a line between the universes. Separate universes, greater sense of individuation, separate levels with demarcation points for me has been the wrong direction and I have backtracked quite a bit. Since a short time ago, I have been treating the various universes as one. Within the universe, everything is a part. This is helping and my progress in this direction is satisfying.

        • “”I find that the universe is wide and my perception is narrow. My spiritual path leads to widening my perception.”’
          That is well put, very well put.. That how it is…. eliminiting those hard solid considerations than we gain different view points than eliminating those, than we get a new set… and on and on..
          By the way those who ignore never end up in heaven because I met God few weeks back and I am sure as a favior for me he would not let that person in. I am also in with the Devil we are pals from way back so he too would do me a favior and you can gues the rest!!!! hehehe.. Black mail is my game!!!

        • He is on OT and incradible well trained ex staff etc.. Auditing solo and ignoring the ridged rules of the churches , this what happens when one really get into my space… but of course that too existed in his universe all ready. He ha found an incradible complicated VALANCE of being god.. of course this valance is very powerful therefore its energy is huge and so its hold that being in that position for ever till is is as-ised of course… but sure gives one that superiority complex.. It is not fun valance… but none of them are that inclused clowns and I have had few of those. So forget the god bit… shity place to be same as any other place- valance.. any beingness is a valance..

        • Old friend here is a bit on evaluation…. with love of course!!!

          Evaluation is on interesting, since evaluation is original to the being, evaluation is how we see the others, the world around us.
          And that evaluation is usually kept undisclosed because one would have hard time fitting in if one would be truthful at all times or most of the time.
          Evaluation I believe also termed criticism censure valuation assessment, judgement conclusion deduction assumption theory verdict estimation ruling, result and guessing.
          Whatever word we use it boils down to the same: while there is communication received that incoming communication is assessed accordingly by the reality of the persons who receives that communication because that action is automatic.
          The Problem is, that assessment seldom expressed spoken stated openly because the social manners dictates the use of nice friendly valance. [ and the use of compliments niceties are encouraged even if they are not factual].
          The use of the valances causes trouble because there is a verbal communication put out but also the real thoughts –assessments unheard by the ears= but nevertheless that assessment judgement verdict too arrives at the same time! hehehe… good one!
          If this social valance would not be used there would be no cause for ARCB’x because one would understand how the other person sees one, and would act accordingly… would those to being form a friendship association after that assessment? If so, could that association be advantages to both parties and would bring benefits? This is beside my point here.
          But when the true assessments of each other’s revealed brought to the open by some coincidence like re-stimulation hells break loose…
          Fun time enters here: bombs away!!!….since now both parties can see that original assessment by the other person toward self and it is still intact… sitting there festering. Finally it is delightful to see the truth- genuineness…
          In my reality good relationship can’t exist if there are withholds, honesty is the requirement in every relationship regardless what kind that would be.

        • Well said, but good manners are not dirty words. I think of good manners as lubricant. Remember that the engine in our cars will start and run for a bit without oil but if we want good service and cooperation from our cars, a little oil can help.

          Good manners doesn’t have to be in the category of insincerity. There was a story of a little boy who wouldn’t look at or speak to his grandmother. His mom coached him when visiting to say something nice to his grandmother so on the next visit he racked his brain for something nice to say and finally blurted out, “Gee! For a fat lady, you don’t sweat much!”

        • They adding their reality how they see that whatever item they happen to be viewing at that moment… example I am looking at a cat: its a he, has balls, black, long fur, white whiskers, green eyes, healty looking-because his fur is shiny, friandly because he purrs.
          I assessed that cat how i see him, what he represent to me.

        • thanks V… i am looking forward to when we dont need verbal communication anymore… because using words causes so many MU’s.
          Are you having a wonderful time?
          Its raining, the mist has given away to gentle rain. Now it would be fun of both of you boys would be here and we could be sharing a good cup of coffee and communication spricled with lots of humor

        • you old thing you…. you have ignored my in vitation to a imagionery powwow smoking not a pipe but having coffee… where is your sense of adventure? I am not inviting you for on orgy!! Only imaginary coffee or tea if that is you fancy.

        • PS: I must add on important factor that evaluation assessment itself never ever alters modifies changes that person’s core universe in any way…. Only some other thoughts considerations are created that is simply continuum… moving on!!!

        • That’s my assumption. It is just a conjecture that seems consistent to me. My greater consistentcy is that the Truth has been counterintuitive and continued to be so the longer I pursue it.

        • Yes, there is no real viewpoint there. It is simply a regurgitation of what one thinks Hubbard to have said. I wonder why is that!

          It is an interesting phenomena. It seems to have something to do with the consideration of self. The whole philosophy of Hubbard is slanted toward preservation and enhancement of self. Hubbard completely rejected the Buddhist idea of Nirvana (blowing out, extinction) of self.

          Indeed, Hubbard was very much fixated on self. That is how he ended… Trying to preserve his self. It is sad.

          .

        • JUST HAD A COGNITION ON MARILDI !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!! She quotes only things which LRH said or others say who are knowledgable.. BY QUOTING those people she makes her-self right all the time…She cant be made wrong that way!
          that is incradible, and when i have evaluated her in Geirs blog she quoted me, pointing out that by my reality my belief she cant be wrong because I say something which fits in same ways in her universe.
          I never seen anything like this before in my entire time i been auditing…

        • Well we all walk, crawl, trip, fall, wheel-chair the best we can. We each see whatever we see and make the best of it. These little peccadilloes seem like the hard shell around the sweet-meat of a nut. One day we just look at things a little bit different and poof. Her confidence will rise one day and she will be like, “Oh, for Pete’s sake!” And we will all have a laugh.

          Personally, I have been quite a scoundrel to put it nicely and seeing something or expecting something like Unity at the end of the long walk gives me peace and has me automatically behaving more honorably. Confronting is not so hard from this point forward since I don’t dread the boogey-man the way I once did.

        • At the end of the long road, I see a lack of fixed beingness rather than some sort of UNITY. There is nothing there to be united. There is only a non-judgmental mindfulness.

          I look at Marildi and anything connected with Marildi, such as a viewpoint, to be a phenomenon to be looked at non-judgmentally. Same with Geir or anybody else. The key is to recognize what is really there. If an inconsistency becomes visible then look at it more closely.

          I don’t focus on self. I simply look at the phenomenon that is there.

          .

        • cognotion are: complite evaluation or final valuation.. one has to valuate to understand… that is discussions are… debating is all about evaluation of incoming information, what we hear-listen too we evaluate.
          COGNITION when we as-is something that as-ising, we lays to rest all problems, all the evaluations-assessing, guessing, confusion,
          PS, my experience with Marildi was confusing so far to me and now all is well,OK by me how she talks, what she say, whatever she is doing is fine, it was fine before too but I did not understood what whas happening and that made our communication confusing… She is fine by me she had her beingness before too..but my cognition has as-ised MY Confusion.. She was not the problem before, my problem was I had no understanding of her where she is a what she is doing.
          This is auditing-sessions are all about… sorting out the ARCB’s the Problems we have with the Universe…

        • Thanks Elizabeth. Yes, I understand about Marildi. She’s better than she thinks. Like a skydiver all suited up and won’t jump… but she will. She’s in an uncomfortable place right now… I know it well. Paralyzing fear of rejection by the orthodox independants and still in the closet to COS. She’s on the fence and I can feel the barbs that poke at her as she straddles the realities.

          I did something today I hadn’t done in a year which was click over to read Marty’s blog. It was like an alien world with all the weird and contrived computations that true believers have to to say and believe. I felt like taking a shower after a few minutes. These are all still true believers and having incorrectly assigned the reason for Scientology’s failure to David Miscavige they embark on the next wave of unlooked at inconsistency. “Here comes the new boss, same as the old boss.” I hope I won’t get fooled again.

          The question for me is what will become my own next wave of unlooked at inconsistency?

        • Marty’s universe is same as DM’s no spirituality there, but how to be well known and how to make money…
          Not my path and i dont see that it would be yours. M. is far from the spiritual path, she only talks sometime about it but there is no experienced reality… To where-ever we heading to…takes long as it takes…

        • @Elizabeth. Yup. You know, something else that I’ve been noticing is that you know how many people there are? Lots. Each person; each little identity; each little slug on the bottom of the ocean is making his way according to each one’s reality; formula. We are never going to know even the smallest part of all these identities, what even a few or even a few hundred? But no more. No one does. It’s part of the makeup of the Nature of things. At the root of things I see some mechanism. Maybe you seen it too and maybe seen it differently but maybe if I describe it there might be something in common. At the root of things this mechanism is a little bit like a slot machine, you know the one-arm bandit. I put a coin in and pull the lever. Something happens. I put in another coin and pull the lever — same thing, see? Sort of the same thing happens but not exactly. Yes, the wheels roll and click to a stop but doesn’t land on the same spot. Slight difference. I see the mechanism of this universe a little bit like that. That coin, pull of the lever, and wheels rolling then stopping I call that iteration. Now you can laugh at my cog but this is why I don’t write a lot of them because each person needs to see this in a way that means something to them. It don’t matter if mine is a slot machine and yours reminds you of a bowling alley but people like us walking the walk just want to see what will happen. What is right around the corner? What is just down the lane? The universe is full of trillions of beings like us but I don’t know and am never going to know hardly any of them. I pretend that I do but I don’t. You guys that I blog with know more about me than my usual friends and neighbors. We are sharing something special here.

          Thanks to you and Vin and Geir and the rest, my universe has been percolating like never before and even laying in bed at night with my eyes closed I feel lucky to be riding the crest of the wave of this adventure. Eating a hot dog or gyro sandwich with my lovely wife at the Greek cubby-hole diner down the street feels like a dramatic movie – full of intrigue and smells and strange people. To steal your phrase, “lovely day in paradise!”

        • Chris, your question seems to presume that all knowledge should exist at the level of perception in that one should know each detail of every identity. This is not so.

          All knowledge gets gradually consolidated into the following levels. For details, please see the essay on MEMORY & RECALL on my blog under KHTK LOOKING.

          Perception
          Experience
          Information
          Hypothesis
          Theory
          Principles
          Axioms
          Self

          Specific knowledge comes from the extrapolation of what is stored at these levels combined with what is perceived in present time. That is where slight differences between two very similar identities are perceived.

          .

        • Vin, good point, but it was Elizabeth asserted she got to know every entity. I’m still not sure what she meant for me to know but have let that go for now.

          I am not presuming but only setting up and trying to understand various arguments. I don’t have a vested interest in what pops up but I do have the expectation that the useful inconsistencies will pop up whether in the field of observation or in my own matrix of ideas or misconstructed questions such as a question stemming from a false major premise.

          But I think you are answering directly to the OP and I would appreciate it if you would continue – maybe examples.

        • Chris, when there is one-ness, there is no difficulty knowing the entety the intangible, the infinite.
          Knowing self is knowing others, but the word ”others” is a consideration, so is persons, group, personality.

        • Are you talking about lingerie? What is unmentionable about it? That is just a consideration. In the Internet world of today all unmentionables are there to be searched and related inconsistencies resolved.

          .

        • I think that ladies underwear was associated with the mystery of sexual pleasure. That is a state where one finds oneself unable to hide anything. One feels totally vulnerable and defenseless. One simply doesn’t want to go there. That is why one stayed away from the subject of ladies underwear.

          .

        • Wrong on that … hehehe…. ladies of the upper class were presented as weak, helpless, gentle critters had a quality of the beautiful flower and dressed accordingly those days too. In who’s mouth the butter would not melt so sex and unmentionables were not in their universe, alien in their daily life conversation… but copulated behind their bedroom doors behind bushes or in mazes , covered alcoves as any good healthy rabbit would… hypocrisy would you say? Inconsistency?

        • What has become real to me after as-ising the MEST, the spiritual universe, that is real to me now: that is what I call the magical universe…Universe of on OT.
          I have nothing but affinity for all critters great and small.
          Since most of my lives I have lived not as human but lived close to in spirit or was one as of those wonderful beings for whom I have great love, those beings who do not have the need to become and the need for human body.
          One of my recalls brought back a wonderful experience in which I have met a being who has become my very first friend, a Sabre Tooth Tiger.
          At that time I was just wandering about the Universe I was just wandering, there was no hurry to get too or from anywhere, go to anyplace do anything, there were no special reasons to become anybody or to have a body.
          This Universe I was in is the Universe which is forgotten by the humans and only exists in Fairy Tales and in children’s imagination, and in those persons universe that have retained their innocence.
          Since this Universe is the universe which was created by the magical ability of Theta.
          Naturally that time my body was not solid had any shape or form in other words I would have been invisible to the human eyes.
          Most occasions I did not bother to mock one up since there were no reasons why I should have to mock one up to because I had everything without.
          An occasion when I had a body mocked-up it was just a very flimsy thing, no substance to it at all, and having that has given a bit of problem, since one had to keep constant attention on it otherwise it would just simply dissolve.
          In my wanderings across the Universe at one occasion my attention was pulled into a distant picture far away… a picture of a mountains and valley, I descended from the distance to have a closer experience.
          The terrain was beautifully wild; ragged mountainside, sheer cliffs hang suspended from nowhere, the grey ancient boulder stacked up high in random. Low growing shrubbery among the boulders and tuft of tall dried grasses were blowing in the breeze.
          On the boulders one could see the old mosses dried by the heat of the sun and places where crumbling splitting rocks and small gravels rolled as the river in narrow deep channels down toward the valley from the steep sloops.
          Among the boulders here and there were small clumps of evergreens these were so old and weather worn that the bark from the trees were long gone, now the wood shone in the light: silvery pale grey.
          Up in the highest level there was dark space among the boulders I could see the well hidden entrance to the cave.
          The valley was the opposite of the almost barren mountainside: here the lush grasses grown tall and the trees offered cool shade and the colors of the succulent grasses were deep emerald green.
          The only splashing ringing sounds could be heard was coming from the creek, the silvery sounds were created as the water flowed –rolled and tumbled over the rough stones: the water was the thong and the bells were the stones.
          I was not doing anything special outside viewing this lovely terrain from above, I was just experiencing the whole valley, the glittering creek, its ringing sounds and the sunny mountain side and that view and for me that picture has become a momentarily anchor point in space.
          I was just there no idea of passing of time, since there was none: no other movements to which I could have compared something to something.
          Than the energy flow changed I to become alert and curious experiencing that sudden change.
          Aha, I noticed the source my attention was pulled toward to the highest point just outside front of the cave entrance. I have observed a critter standing high on boulder looking around.
          It was a very big pussy cat, he oozed power he was the source the energy this was his territory! What a wondrous sight he was, beautiful in every way, the creation of raw power.
          My, I thought, observing this lovely cat and I have salivated invisibly of course, thinking of the possibility of the game to be had.
          Like flash I zipped down to the valley and I mocked up the body in great hurry and started to walk about. Oh, he noticed right off, naturally, he had too since I have intended that he would.
          Like a shadow of a dark cloud he oozed, poured over boulders and crevices down into the valley and the game began.
          He started to stalk me hiding behind boulders flattening his body to the ground, sliding in silence through the tall grasses and I played the game well that did not see him.
          So I become hunted, I leaped out of his reach we run, we jumped, flown over the huge boulders, hid behind tree trunks, or I in silence in sneaky devious way have dissolved my body become invisible in order to cause a bit of confusion for him.
          While he was franticly looking for his next meal, I would re-appear at a different locations, we run all over the place, up on one side of the mountain than down again as we continued our frolick.
          Finally I let him come close and as he taken a wild leap toward my body claws out to slash, mouth wide open, of course he has fallen right through me landed with great crash and from the violent landing he tumbled, rolled over and over.
          He was up in an instant and turned and readied him-self for another attack you should have seen his face his eyes full of wonder because he missed his pray, he was coming at me again slashing at my body with his long sharp claws as I stood there unharmed not moving, than he has realized nothing was happening, he made few more wild slashes at the air the mock-up where I was, I knew than he was seeing it for himself that there was no solid body but only a vision: a being without a body: than he just set down and looked at me, wonder and understanding in his beautiful golden eyes.
          I stepped to him and I touched his beautiful head let our energies to intermingle and he in recognition-acceptance purred and rubbed his head against my translucent body.
          From then on we two have become inseparable; we walked side by side our communication was expressed as pure joy, affinity in whole.
          When he slept I would mock -up my body and lay by his side resting my head on his powerful shoulder.
          He experienced great joy and has become fun for him to walk or jump through my mocked up body. Once in a while as he would wildly chasing after me I would let the body become more solid so he could catch me and experience the joy of solidity, having-ness, how he love that.!!!
          We rolled about wrestled and we bitten, clawed at the nothing. The valley rang from our soundless roars, shouts and laughter. We had great fun, we were the fun the ability, the joy how to play.
          At times when the light were gone and the billions of distant stars hang suspended around us, those occasions would find us sitting side by side by the creek watching as the starlight was sprinkled over the dancing water and sharing space with each other and the Universe.
          I have remained in that place long as he was with his body. We were together when he finally made the decision to leave.
          Odd thing happened when he did that which was so unexpected to me, taken me by surprise, soon as he left his body the mountain and the valley too has disappeared.
          All that wild, beautiful terrain was just mock-up same as his body which he has created for just for the fun of it!!
          And there we were, two free beings looking forward a new game, knowing whatever we do next was ours, our own reality our having-ness and for only the love of the Game!!!
          PS: He was here with me my Indigo had a cat body; we have found each other again on Earth.
          But now I still have the body and it is he, Indigo who is waiting for me, for the moment when I sever my connection to this MEST Universe from this valley and then we will continue our uncharted journey to rediscover the magical Universe our own creation.

        • good heavens, you are now a whealty man: you have one more view point because me posting my reality too.
          whealth of view points expands ones narrow universe… each session brings new reality, if one has hundred sessions on power, 100 cognition than that person has 100 differen view points on what is that elusive consideration !! so you are welcome to my view points.

        • i just went over to see Geirs blog… Ohhhhhh. a new broom is at work… reorganizing.. out lining what is right and what is wrong…. I wonder when was the last time when she picked up the cans…or simply confronted her own universe…
          I just had a thought today…. those who complain- that is what they do… complain… and those who do, they never complain… they just get down to it and handle what its needed to be handled…

        • There is… you can bet on that. the imegination are the implanted material… all of them.. in which people believe that it is their life….. held in place by constant stimulation…

        • I just realized why I like to be here… there is no up man-ship here, we accept each other’s reality, even when we comment on them and say that ours is not the same…
          We do not insist that we are right, we don’t have to since we are comfortable and at ease were we are as individual… we know that we walk the Path. Very nice…

        • my dear… that is being in that position is a major step torward spirituality… allow others to be and not to have the desire to change, to accept what is, that is all about what one gains in sessions.. To look at the universe and say…Ok if you want to be a monkey and play the gitar and drink blood at the same time.. that is OK by me… while i be having a party with the fairis and play poker..
          really dont make any difference who is doing what… all is well in the universe…. really well..
          Who is doing what to scientology… that too dont matter…. and this is not apathy… i just know the future… the knowledge and the power what is after as-ising the MEST is not understandable.. not much use trying to explain… I would not belived it my self even10 years back.

        • Focusing on right and wrong is playing in the hands of the ego.

          One should focus on inconsistency only by spelling it out in clear terms.

          .

          .

        • weeeeeeeeeeeeeellllllll…… since i all ready sorted out all the inconsistencies i can play with anything I like…. I am not here in this blog to sort out anything… i am here because I like you boys and i like to communicate with you two..how is that sit with you my friend?

        • Marildi’s concern seems to be that of preserving the ‘tech’, which gave her wins. She has no interest in spotting and resolving inconsistencies with a view to advance knowledge and understanding.

          .

        • Yes, she like the religious enjoys a firm foundation. For me, all foundations out of their own context unravel and become like quicksand so I don’t look for a firm foundation, at least I’m not looking for foundational panaceas.

        • ah yes, a firm foundation for that frame of reference only. But the firm foundation is both an illusion and a thought stopper and works against looking for the next inconsistency. This is why I say I no longer seek a firm foundation — I do not need this. If one should pop up I would be pleased but do not expect this to happen. Neither do I expect it not to happen.

        • Maybe if I describe what I mean by unity as a field of potential so that I don’t give the impression of a beingness. Like the snow on the TV — that metaphor for unity.

        • Potential seems to be a placeholder like God when one does not have a clear idea of what is really there.

          Hey, I am back in USA writing from NY (Kennedy int airport). My flight back home to Tampa Bay is 4 hours from now.

          .

  11. ARC is delusionary when it serves the purpose of ego or self. This is the kind of ARC, which is taught in Scientology.

    The true reality is the recognition of what is really there uncolored by judgmental opinion of the self.

    The true agreement is the recognition described above.

    The true affinity exists in terms of granting total beingness to what is there by not altering it in any way.

    It is non-judgmental mindfulness that leads to true ARC. Actually, ARC is a superfluous concept if one simply adheres to non-judgmental mindfulness.

    .

    • Vinaire here is on addition comment to your reality, I happen to agree with yours.

      What is love or hate! A delicious subject. On this Planet that word those words are used like money and given for exchange.
      Which one of those words is being used depends on what kind of simulation the incoming person receives therefore the responds would be accordance with that stimulation what the person would feel: love adoration admiration etc. in different degree or dislike-hate repulsion etc. in different degree.
      Example: received a dangerous negative communication which jeopardises that persons existence survival :FEAR IS TRIGERED when that happens that person goes into defensive aggressive mode and arms himself: uses words to frighten that person horrible person away: I will cut you open and will hang your guts up on the nearest tree to dry and will use your gut as the string on my guitar! But I will eat your liver first [gee, that is not so healthy diet: the liver if full of chemicals; oh well to each his own!]
      Or just simply gets his bow and arrow and shoots that fear-provoking bastard through the heart: fast solution for the problem.
      Or withdraws becomes small, displaying helplessness, being weak fragile, powerless: Look pal, I will not harm you in any way…
      Or offers bribe sweetener of some kind… now that mode of defence is very common among humans: you can’t hate me if I give you this!!!!!
      Simple solutions and these Planets occupants have demonstrated incredible diverse ways to eliminate those frightening opponent who has gotten into their personal space.
      Me, personally what do I do when my toes are stepped on? I just simply tell the person I will roast them over the hot coal of the pit, and lick their bones clean: of course I no longer eat human flesh since that went out of vogue here and I some time ago back on the track have switched over to veggies… but I love painting with words….
      It seems the word ‘’Hate’’ is used for black mail purposes.. since no one wants to be hated disliked, so in order to be not ’’hated’’ and to be LOVED again one complies fulfils with the ‘’haters’’ demands ultimatums. Rotten condition is when one gives up ones believes ones integrity in order to belong, to be accepted, to remain within the fold. UGH ugly..
      Bloody Hell, what one will do in order to be loved, included accepted understood and most of all AKNOWLEDGED for being present: existing.
      That is HATE: some reality of it..
      How about LOVE!!!!! That word is the most miss-used, beaten to death concept existing on this planet: OVER USED AND ABUSED!
      What people use it for and how they see what loves means, and believe in those considerations plus have collective agreements what love really means is beyond belief…
      Mommy, I love you if you buy me that toy, I love because you sent me those tickets to the Rose Bowl.
      I love you because you are the best: provided the roof over my head, bought me designers clotting, taking me to Acapulco, because you are a greatest lover who ever been in my bed.
      I love you because you are beautiful, great cook, listens to me and don’t interrupt, love you because you have lots of money and you have biceps the size of half football.
      And I will love you for ever for that diamond ring you just put on my finger…..OHHHHHHHH
      Love, expressing some form of love toward the other persons is a kind of acknowledgement, acceptance, recognition for that persons existence: yes I see you, I know you, You are here, we share Universes!
      I wonder if love existing on this planet how it feels like which was not being connected to anything at all on this Planet? [One can observe the least aberrated kind of love-affection among animals groups, families]
      In my reality ‘’hate’’ and every other connecting realities agreements assumptions can be as-ised in sessions.
      and those realities which are connected to WHY THE PERSON LOVES: those reason for stimulations that loving feeling that energy mass which too is the part of the Bank can be handled in sessions and it should be in order for one to really understand what is LOVE means outside of the MEST Universe where there are no connections –stimulations existing..
      Love is the heavy energy, the pleasure moments.
      My reality as usual…. Nothing more and nothing les!
      PS: But love-affinity do exist here when there is sharing the same reality, the same goals and where is no evaluation but allowing beingness… Allowing beingness is love in my reality.
      Your post insire this and I have put this in my blog too.

      • Excellent point, Eliza. The whole tone scale seems to spring from a fixation on self. One may say that the core of the bank is this fixation on SELF.

        True love is granting of beingness through non- judgmental mindfulness.

        When there is no fixation on self one is naturally serene. There is no fixed beingness.

        .

        • These are both good points Vin and Elizabeth, When we grant beingness we show true respect and we de-stimulate those around us. This is a good thing.

        • Good thing? F. the good thing.. i dont want any…not in my reality because if I would not be stimulated I could not understand what is that stimulation and confront it than.. this life was BRING IN THE CLOWNS…. baby,stimulate me because i want to know, I want to see-feel-underestand—- This life was one hell of a ride… I would love to thank every person who has stepped on my toes, punched my lights out, yelled at ma, called me names, evaluated and invalidated me. ignored me, not ack.me.. put me down in any way.. for all that I am ever, totally greatful…

        • Yes, I understand but you say that all from the viewpoint of the session. Session selectively restimulates the bank for the purpose of confrontation and as-is’ness. Normal daily life is just the stimulation without the as-isness, where we are not being mindful but only restimulated.

          Are you saying, and I would agree, that we should be mindful and leveling inconsistencies at all times? That is a good idea.

  12. the truth cant be debated… discussion only exist when the view points vary.. when the truth cand be found than those who looking will settle for the next best thing..
    By the way I dont reveive V. comments.

    • Elizabeth, I’m not doing anything to block that. Possibly try clicking the one of the two boxes under your “Leave a Reply” box – check the one “Notify me of follow-up comments via email” and see if that changes anything… You should only have to do that one time per thread.

    • What my reality on this is that each reality is different but becomes more similar as one as-is their reactive bank. I predict that when I as-is all my reactive bank that I will share consciousness. Or maybe share is not the right word. Share implies separateness. Achieve may be a better word because in this universe I believe we all may be a single consciousness at the end of my path. I catch glimpses of this and Unity is another good word for this state of consciousness.

      When I answered Vin’s post about ARC, this is another way of trying to communicate it. Forcing ARC by manipulating the affinity, the reality, or the communication does bring about ARC but not necessarily truth. It brings about understanding of that particular frame of reference, and that frame of reference can be very aberrated. As-is’ing inconsistencies does bring about ARC within oneself and is done “in-valence” or written another as the most balanced and centered self that we can be.

      See where I am going? Your rudiments sessions level inconsistencies, at least mine do. This brings about ARC within myself in a real way. My improved understanding should provide a calming effect in my environment as I create less static in my environment.

      This is different than the ARC of a salesman who is attempting to enforce a reality through artful communication. This is not truth. The resulting ARC of that frame of reference might have me purchase a car that I cannot afford. That improved understanding is only for the frame of reference of the car selling dealership and may have me justifying to my wife how I have done such a stupid thing.

        • You should EAT… I am just trying to catch up make some acks and post up a few replies. I know you have put a lot of work into a couple replies and are curious about my reality. Sometimes I don’t write because I have something in mind but no words. So just now I was catching up trying to jot down a few thoughts… Anytime you get to it is fine!

          About that comment I just wrote, the main point I guess I am trying to make is that ARC is to me a kind of tool to cope with the machinery until it is understood and vanished. When the inconsistency is leveled, there is a clarity of understanding which don’t require considerations of distance (because there is no space), of agreement (nothing to agree or disagree on), and communication becomes unnecessary when we know one another or as Vin says “look non-judgementally.” Knowledge to me becomes more easy than particles sending back and forth to one another since there is no distance.

  13. V..””I am waiting to go on a safari so I shall quickly respond here. In simple terms delusion is a gradient of not seeing what is really there, but seeing an altered version due to one’s expectations, speculations, presumptions, etc.””””
    E… 10000% right on.. have a wonderful time!!1

  14. Elizabeth, I was hasty. The purpose of this OP is to explore what is the difference between imagination and knowledge. Beginning at birth and living for 100 years, a person lives 8,640,000 seconds. Please elaborate on how you have gotten to know these many beings personally…

    Is this in your imagination or is this in reality a knowledge that we can all share?

    • Very simple answers…. How many life times I have audited out, how many persons I have met in those sessions.
      How many billions I have met because I have had sessions on Free Beings on OT levels and since than?
      Till one takes apart the MEST UNIVERSE which is not just this planet, till one confronts hundreds of implants and because of that one finds out what in fact personolities are… till than i really cant explain any more.
      All personalities are implanted, all valances are just that… In fact there is no such a think as a person, personality, they are just a consideration a assumption and agreement… But in reality true reality none existent. I hope this heps..

      • You have asserted that you know each and every one of the trillions personally and also assert you have no memory mostly in the same breath. Your language is incongruous so I ask you to help put it together for me into an understandable whole and separate out the mental reality from the physical reality if there is a difference.

        • And your reality is very different from mine.. lets keep that in mind too please.
          I have knowledge, and memory is not needed to have knowledge.
          Memory is on implanted item machinery, a complicated one because by now there are many different implants affect each and every person on this planet that is the reason some have ‘’better memory’’ than others some even have photographic memory even. Total machine thing.
          I have as-ised all the implants. Knowing beings what they are who they are very simple but to explain is not easy… Sorry Chris one need to have sessions not on this items but in general to understand in full the complexity of the MEST and who and what is… Some of these things will seem unreal to you because lacking of personal experience. What I say is my reality only and you don’t have to believe it, and why should you?
          I am in communication with someone who is soloing daily, we compare notes-reality-experiences and we have found out that we have very little reality on each other’s experiences because we don’t share the same implanted material.
          I write this in order to explain that my reality can’t be real to you, but that do not means it did not happen been experienced by me..

        • So we will not have agreement on the language? We cannot know what the other means by a trillion? Or a billion? . . . Or one? We cannot know what the other is referring to when they say they personally know someone? This is a sincere inquiry and not snide or invalidation. You are I together right now are stomping right on the OP; the supposed dividing line between mental reality to physical reality. Please explore with me.

        • OP means “original post” which originates the thread we are on right now. So the OP in this case is Imagination vs Knowledge: What is the relationship of mental reality to physical reality?

        • consistency here means agreement, solidity, being stable, remaining within the same reality. ‘important’ not in my universe, and i cant speek for others,
          where are you heading with your questions?

        • Thank you for that. Where I am going is that I realized that we interact with the mental and with the physical and make the necessary bridge each time we write to one another. I have an idea in my mind. I have as many ideas as stars in the night sky. Mental ideas, no doubt? I assume you are the same way. Pick some words, write them down, send them off into the internet sky and wait for an answer.

          I am trying to explore what is happening between the physical and the mental. Is there a difference? What is the difference? How are they similar and how are they related. Is there a difference?

          In every creation story, the universe came first and the man and woman came later. I suspect ego came later still or possibly last if that is agreeable.

          In my own auditing, I seem to have addressed my ego first, then my relationships with others next and then my relationships with the greater world next. Do you have an experience like this? Or not think of it in that way?

          When you run rudiments on a spoon or a wall or chair, does your session affect your mind or does it affect the chair or am I asking the wrong question?

        • i dont have on ego, i dont even have reality what ego can be.. i was told 20 years back that i did not have ego, i have no reality being important,valuable, better than, or worst . i have no considerations on those things… cant help you.
          i dont have a mind, again on that, there is no reality, the session , in session the lies are erased and replaced with the truth, which dont have mass, no energy.
          in session the mass is adressed, confronted I go straigh to the mass, no side roads.
          the communication exist in the universe, the words, the writing, the computer, are the top layer, the thoughts are one layer before that the energy lays under that.

      • Knowledge is simply memory in the following forms (See :MEMORY & RECALL

        Perception (current to 500 milliseconds in past)
        Experience
        Information
        Hypothesis
        Theory
        Principles
        Axioms
        Self

        NOTE: Some undigested perceptions (called engrams in Dianetics) may exist from distant past but these are very few. All other pictures obtained from memory are extrapolations from experience etc.

        .

  15. Alright. You do not have an ego.

    Let’s say that 30 Million people have dies of AIDS. How many of those people have you known, and is this a mental reality or a physical reality or both or am I asking an uninformed question?

    • 30 million robots have stopped working… I know the spiritual beings who do not have pesonality, who do not have identity, who do not have ”lifes’ or who do not died… who could not have died and there is not singular
      I really dont have any idea what you want…
      You want human view points, human reality, and NO< THERE IS NO EGO… that is a conscideration same as identety, personality,

  16. Elizabeth, you said, “one gets to know and one can indetify all personalities… every one of them…EVERY ONE OF THEM!!!”

    What did you mean? They exist or not? You know them as individuals or not? Or my question is wrong?

    • you are looking for human personalities, living on the Earth.. you want me to say yes, i have shaken hands with 30 million bodies on this planet..
      If that kind of on answer you want…. nooooo, I have not met on this planet 30 million bodies… you know that toooo….. so you are bant to get that answer.. you got it..

    • the problem is you want different answers, I have given different explanations, they were not good enough. you still pressed till i have given what you wanted… this dont make any sense to me.. you wanted me to admit no I do not know those people, of course you have known that all the time.. you wanted to make my answer to be wrong?
      if you want regular normal answers ask Marildi or any other persons..
      the whole questioning was like Spanish incqusition.

  17. Chris, i know the MEST, I know what is that. I know all the roles are played out here… every one of them is a implanted role….
    Yes, and I do understand what are the implants and who humans are..

  18. How does this looks?
    (This is a theory, of course, because I have no proof or method, of becoming “pure cause”)

    Imagination, at the level of pure cause, would be creativity, the origin of everything, included knowledge.

    At different levels of effect, imagination becomes a mechanical process of mixing observations of already existing objects (knowledge) in the mind or in the material universe to create new combinations of them.

    Becoming an effect of objects in the material universe would make an enforced game player (Imagination still used to win game, and still is, at least partially, under willing and knowing control of the player)

    Becoming an effect of objects or considerations in one´s mind (one´s own “knowledge”), would be neurosis or psychosis. ( Gradually becoming an unwilling and unknowing effect of his own imagination)

    Failure to distinguish between objects in the mind with those in the material universe would be delusion. ( Imagination degraded into distorted perception or knowledge, and is completely out of control. Complete inability to spot inconsistencies)

    • That looks pretty good to me.

      At the bottom end of your scale, I can see the snake eating his own tale. This is the result of the recursive and self-similar construct of MEST until it becomes so convoluted and folded back on itself that we seem to see ourselves coming at the same time as we are going.

      I am thinking that individuality is many layers deep into manufactured considerations. Backing out of this; leveling inconsistencies; becoming more consistent it seems that I find balance and achieve a game. Backing out further might be possible but is that the goal? If I understand Elizabeth, she thinks yes. But my own goal is short of backing completely out of the physical reality.

      Some have a sinister view of physical reality. I don’t. Is that naive?

      • Whenever we use logic we have a sistem of cogwheels which eventually turn a full circle and then the snake ends up eating itself.
        The very moment we start with a frame of reference, we are defining the walls of our cell.
        I do not see physical reality as particularly sinister, I guess very frequently we give it that meaning, depending on the game we are playing.
        I also kind of like the balance in the game, but, to be honest, at this moment I would really enjoy to keep my freedom to move in and out of the game

      • (1) Can Cause exist by itself without there being a simultaneous effect? I don’t think so. I don’t understand what pure Cause would be.

        (2) There are manifestations for sure, but mechanism of how they come about may only be speculated upon.

        (3) Original (new) combinations also qualify as original manifestations.

        (4) It is not a matter of backing out of any reality. It is the matter of perceiving the reality for what it is.

        .

      • I think that you are right.

        Here is my analysis of cause.

        In my view it is inconsistent to assume Cause to be there before the beginning, as explained in the link above. Cause and effect seem to manifest themselves simultaneously in the beginning. How the beginning comes about is unknowable.

        Anthropomorphism comes from taking a concept like cause unilaterally and assigning self to it.

        I, therefore, question Scientology Axiom #1.

        .

        • Sorry! I meant Factor #1 and not Axiom #1. I still have to organize my thoughts on Axiom #1, before I critique it.

          With respect to the BEGINNING, cause and effect seem to occur simultaneously. They are two different aspects of the same beginning. The falsehood is that Cause is then projected to be “before the beginning,” in an effort to explain how beginning come about.

          The truth is that anything we can be aware of is a manifestation. If we are aware of cause then cause is a manifestation, and that has a beginning. This then boils down to the question, “How does a consideration begin?”

          .

        • To me, a self, or thetan, itself is made up of considerations.

          Considerations come from beyond the self, or thetan. Considerations manifest themselves the way intuition does. It comes out of the blue… from unknowable.

          Considerations that are hanging around are hanging around. We don’t put any attention on how they came to be in the first place. Yes, original new considerations do attract our attention immediately because they seem to be so rare.

          It would be a wonderful exercise to track back each of our existing consideration to its beginning. For example, when and where did the consideration begin that “this is a table.”

          It is as spooky as Halloween.

          🙂

  19. Elizabeth, I am not trying to catch you out-of-bounds. I am simply asking whether there is mental reality separate from physical reality. If so, what is that separation from your point of view? Or, possibly my question is rooted in a false premise.

    • There is solidity for the eyes to see, but that is a illusion, all considerations are mental…. believes therefor to that extend mental..made up…illusion… close yor eyes and what you see with out that is real to you… but only to you..

    • Lets try it again….
      Physical reality would be what the eyes “SEE” , let say crow flies into the garden land among the flowers. That would be physical since the EYES SEE, but the rest how I see him.. what I perceive is his energy flows, his communication to me, that is totally separated from the physical. Same goes for the flowers… Flower is creation… but that underlying energy that I duplicate and that sends me…
      Same as the mountains lay north from my window if they would not be that energy which is so pure in comparison to the cities energy flows than what the eyes ‘’see’’ would not cause that sensation that experience I have when I ‘’see-look’’ at them.
      The solidity is nothing it is a flat meaningless thing if there is no energy to go with it. Just take a look at a Rembrandt painting and something from Monet, one is almost flat the other is full of vibrant energy… the paintings retain the energy flows of the artists. That is the reason the original is that: original still being part of the artist .
      Chris to me what I pick up the vibrations are real.. not what the eyes see…

  20. Knowledge seems to be a combination of what is being perceived in present time and what is being extrapolated from past experience.

    Any extrapolation must not be inconsistent with what is being perceived in present time as really there without any filters. Present time perception takes precedence over any extrapolation from past knowledge.

    .

  21. V.. you never left because we did not ‘see’ you being someplace else yet your energy flow is a bit different… there is on extra, higher resonance, that must be Africa’s flow you have picked up.

  22. here Chris something for you it is revised from the original and here you can see the line what is solid and what is my universe which I believe is REAL…read it please..

    What has become real to me after as-ising the MEST, the spiritual universe, that is real to me now: that is what I call the magical universe…Universe of on OT.
    I have nothing but affinity for all critters great and small.
    Since most of my lives I have lived not as human but lived close to in spirit or was one as of those wonderful beings for whom I have great love, those beings who do not have the need to become and the need for human body.
    One of my recalls brought back a wonderful experience in which I have met a being who has become my very first friend, a Sabre Tooth Tiger.
    At that time I was just wandering about the Universe I was just wandering, there was no hurry to get too or from anywhere, go to anyplace do anything, there were no special reasons to become anybody or to have a body.
    This Universe I was in is the Universe which is forgotten by the humans and only exists in Fairy Tales and in children’s imagination, and in those persons universe that have retained their innocence.
    Since this Universe is the universe which was created by the magical ability of Theta.
    Naturally that time my body was not solid had any shape or form in other words I would have been invisible to the human eyes.
    Most occasions I did not bother to mock one up since there were no reasons why I should have to mock one up to because I had everything without.
    An occasion when I had a body mocked-up it was just a very flimsy thing, no substance to it at all, and having that has given a bit of problem, since one had to keep constant attention on it otherwise it would just simply dissolve.
    In my wanderings across the Universe at one occasion my attention was pulled into a distant picture far away… a picture of a mountains and valley, I descended from the distance to have a closer experience.
    The terrain was beautifully wild; ragged mountainside, sheer cliffs hang suspended from nowhere, the grey ancient boulder stacked up high in random. Low growing shrubbery among the boulders and tuft of tall dried grasses were blowing in the breeze.
    On the boulders one could see the old mosses dried by the heat of the sun and places where crumbling splitting rocks and small gravels rolled as the river in narrow deep channels down toward the valley from the steep sloops.
    Among the boulders here and there were small clumps of evergreens these were so old and weather worn that the bark from the trees were long gone, now the wood shone in the light: silvery pale grey.
    Up in the highest level there was dark space among the boulders I could see the well hidden entrance to the cave.
    The valley was the opposite of the almost barren mountainside: here the lush grasses grown tall and the trees offered cool shade and the colors of the succulent grasses were deep emerald green.
    The only splashing ringing sounds could be heard was coming from the creek, the silvery sounds were created as the water flowed –rolled and tumbled over the rough stones: the water was the thong and the bells were the stones.
    I was not doing anything special outside viewing this lovely terrain from above, I was just experiencing the whole valley, the glittering creek, its ringing sounds and the sunny mountain side and that view and for me that picture has become a momentarily anchor point in space.
    I was just there no idea of passing of time, since there was none: no other movements to which I could have compared something to something.
    Than the energy flow changed I to become alert and curious experiencing that sudden change.
    Aha, I noticed the source my attention was pulled toward to the highest point just outside front of the cave entrance. I have observed a critter standing high on boulder looking around.
    It was a very big pussy cat, he oozed power he was the source the energy this was his territory! What a wondrous sight he was, beautiful in every way, the creation of raw power.
    My, I thought, observing this lovely cat and I have salivated invisibly of course, thinking of the possibility of the game to be had.
    Like flash I zipped down to the valley and I mocked up the body in great hurry and started to walk about. Oh, he noticed right off, naturally, he had too since I have intended that he would.
    Like a shadow of a dark cloud he oozed, poured over boulders and crevices down into the valley and the game began.
    He started to stalk me hiding behind boulders flattening his body to the ground, sliding in silence through the tall grasses and I played the game well that did not see him.
    So I become hunted, I leaped out of his reach we run, we jumped, flown over the huge boulders, hid behind tree trunks, or I in silence in sneaky devious way have dissolved my body become invisible in order to cause a bit of confusion for him.
    While he was franticly looking for his next meal, I would re-appear at a different locations, we run all over the place, up on one side of the mountain than down again as we continued our frolick.
    Finally I let him come close and as he taken a wild leap toward my body claws out to slash, mouth wide open, of course he has fallen right through me landed with great crash and from the violent landing he tumbled, rolled over and over.
    He was up in an instant and turned and readied him-self for another attack you should have seen his face his eyes full of wonder because he missed his pray, he was coming at me again slashing at my body with his long sharp claws as I stood there unharmed not moving, than he has realized nothing was happening, he made few more wild slashes at the air the mock-up where I was, I knew than he was seeing it for himself that there was no solid body but only a vision: a being without a body: than he just set down and looked at me, wonder and understanding in his beautiful golden eyes.
    I stepped to him and I touched his beautiful head let our energies to intermingle and he in recognition-acceptance purred and rubbed his head against my translucent body.
    From then on we two have become inseparable; we walked side by side our communication was expressed as pure joy, affinity in whole.
    When he slept I would mock -up my body and lay by his side resting my head on his powerful shoulder.
    He experienced great joy and has become fun for him to walk or jump through my mocked up body. Once in a while as he would wildly chasing after me I would let the body become more solid so he could catch me and experience the joy of solidity, having-ness, how he love that.!!!
    We rolled about wrestled and we bitten, clawed at the nothing. The valley rang from our soundless roars, shouts and laughter. We had great fun, we were the fun the ability, the joy how to play.
    At times when the light were gone and the billions of distant stars hang suspended around us, those occasions would find us sitting side by side by the creek watching as the starlight was sprinkled over the dancing water and sharing space with each other and the Universe.
    I have remained in that place long as he was with his body. We were together when he finally made the decision to leave.
    Odd thing happened when he did that which was so unexpected to me, taken me by surprise, soon as he left his body the mountain and the valley too has disappeared.
    All that wild, beautiful terrain was just mock-up same as his body which he has created for just for the fun of it!!
    And there we were, two free beings looking forward a new game, knowing whatever we do next was ours, our own reality our having-ness and for only the love of the Game!!!
    PS: He was here with me my Indigo had a cat body; we have found each other again on Earth.
    But now I still have the body and it is he, Indigo who is waiting for me, for the moment when I sever my connection to this MEST Universe from this valley and then we will continue our uncharted journey to rediscover the magical Universe our own creation.

    • The following is simply an attempt to understand what you write:
      The following is simply an attempt to understand what you write:

      (1) So, you have as-ised the MEST universe. As a result the spiritual universe has become more real to you.

      (2) Is it now possible to as-is this spiritual or magical universe? If not then why not?

      (3) What is this thing that you call ‘spirit without human body’? Can you explain it?

      (4) What is this thing that you call ‘magical Theta’? Can you explain it?

      (5) What is this thing that you call ‘mocked up body’? Is it just some visualization?

      (6) Can one visualize without having a live human body?

      (7) What is the ‘energy flow’ you talk about? Is this some kind of perception?

      Sorry, science is not very poetic. It just looks at poetry.

      .

      • 1.. not more real…. only reality there is…
        2..the spiritual universe is not a universe as the MEST is it do not have those realities, has no considerations, no solidity,, no past or future, no continuum,, only NOW… therefore there is nothing to as-is.
        3… intangible-infinite.. we have agreed on the concept on that earlier.
        4… simple… just the moment which is the mock-up and experience at the same moment –NOW
        5… mocked up body which in my reality would be like ghostly state, mostly see through, wispy thing, but others would pick up that intention 100% that wispy state would be real to them, they would know I am there and that is in that moment my anchor point in that space-location.
        6…yes, that is all about, the body do not visualize in the first place the being doing that. The body can’t visualize, the body is a robot, it do not think.. do not know..
        7.. energy flow in my reality is that substance which are things made of.. the original postulate which brought that item into existence… not solidity… that is addition to the original postulate.
        “Sorry, science is not very poetic. It just looks at poetry.””
        No wonder science never will find what they are looking for, and even if they would see it, they would not , could not recognize what they see: what is..

      • (2) But there is something because you are describing your spiritual/magical universe as a place where you entertain yourself. In my view, any ‘something’ can be as-ised.

        (3) Well one cannot describe the unknowable. If something can be described then it is not unknowable.

        (4) So, you mock things up to entertain yourself. OK, I understand that. All writers poets, scientists, do that. So, you are mocking up things and as-ising them as you go, so nothing persists. Very clever! But that would be imagination or mental reality as opposed to physical reality.

        (5) Can you do that with me? I would love to see/feel your mocked up body.

        (6) All the visualizations that I know of have been done by people with live bodies, and that includes you. Dead people are not there to tell me about their visualizations, so i don’t know about that.

        (7) So this ‘energy flow’ is the “material” of which mock-ups are made of! I can understand that.

        Science penetrates assumptions, presuppositions, speculations, and it sorts out imagination from actual.

        .

        • reading about something cant give the actual experience… I cant give you on experience since you need that experience to prove that its existing.. yet, you have such on experiences.. but it seems no reality about them… you dont pay attaintion, or yoy dismiss them as whatever…
          I have met two individual while blogging in the past two years and we did not needed explanation where we were, how our universe was… we just knew after a very short communication…. duplication do not need explanation…

        • V…All works, all inventions of mechanism, machinery, works of writers, poets, composers, art of every kind, designs of clotting, gardens, or movie sets, is born given birth in the spiritual universe than it is interpreted accordingly to the ability of that being into matter-objects, written on paper, blown into different shape of glass object, painted on canvas… even the car which you drive was born out of that universe so was your body which you occupy at this moment..
          The Physical universe exist because it was first conceived apart from the solidity, the thoughts are invisible to the ‘’eyes’’.

        • (1) I am not interested in proving anything. I am only interested in dissolving inconsistencies.

          (2) I believe in the principle that anything created (mocked up) can also be dissolved (as-ised).

          (3) Unknowable is something that is beyond consideration, and therefore, it cannot be described.

          (4) All considerations can be described and as-ised.

          (5) I am interested in finding out how one’s mental mock-ups can penetrate another person’s mental universe.

          (6) I need to understand enough so I can duplicate those experiences within myself.

          (7) What was unique about those two individuals who you met while blogging. How did they understand you?

          (8) It is not enough to say, “You don’t have ability to experience it.” How does one develop that ability?

          (9) I do understand intuition that comes from beyond self. It is then translated into things in this physical universe.

          (10) Tell me more about your cat Indigo here on earth. How is it the same character from your spiritual universe? Maybe because it plays with you the same way?

          .

  23. This is in response to the following from Eliza:
    comment-510

    Personal reality = What is there + personal judgment filter

    Personal judgment filter = extrapolations from Undigested perceptions + Experience + Information + Hypothesis + Theory + Principles + Axioms + Self

    So, when comparing personal realities, one must compare

    Perception (current and undigested engrams)
    Experience
    Information
    Hypothesis
    Theory
    Principles
    Axioms
    Self (viewpoint, opinion, overall impression, etc. that are better to be avoided until the upper layers are sorted out)

    .

    • This is a further response to the following from Eliza:
      comment-510

      (1) There is no memory other than extrapolations from undigested perception, experience, information, hypothesis, theory, principles, axioms, and self.
      (2) The actual memory span is 300 – 500 milliseconds of current perceptions (See MEMORY in Wikipedia).
      (3) The idea of implants and machinery is a hypothesis from Hubbard. It needs to be examined more closely.
      (4) There may be fixed extrapolations that may be called “fixed ideas”.
      (5) A Being seems to be a very condensed structure that exists at the sevel of “self” in

      Whether something happened or not is beside the point. What matters is extrapolations and their basis.

      .

      • Not at all.. pussy cat… not at all. Self would not be needed to be condensed at all.. One views things but that view is not the self.
        I would not call a recall of a Fairy sitting on the oriental lily or a cannibal still glowing with the afterglow of killing coved with guts munching an retrieved liver being in on the same level, those creations do not contain same considerations or energy flows.

      • Per Tech Dictionary:

        SELF = thetan, plus machines plus body plus reactive bank.

        THETAN = the awareness of awareness unit which has all potentialities but no mass, no wave-length and no location.

        So, at the core of SELF is thetan. Since there can be no awareness without manifestation, a thetan has to be a manifestation.

        If a potential exists then it has to be a manifestation. Therefore, a thetan is a manifestation. It would then be inconsistent to say that a thetan has no location. because all manifestations are location in the background of no manifestation.

        .

  24. In response to comment-510 by Eliza:

    Knowledge = memory + looking

    as explained in MEMORY & RECALL.

    ‘Implanted item machinary’ is only a very small part of memory referred to as ‘undigested perceptions’. They seem to color everything else and that is why they may appear to be very complicated. But they are resolved quite simply if one follows KHTK Looking approach of resolving inconsistencies as they appear.

    .

  25. This is in response to comment-552

    (1) What is perceived within last 500 milliseconds is probably the most unfiltered knowledge. Let me call it ‘current data’.

    (2) Filters enter in as one extrapolates from data stored as Perception (undigested), Experience, Information, Hypothesis, Theory, Principles, Axioms, and Self.

    (3) It is the comparison of extrapolated data with current data, which may reveal inconsistencies.

    (4) Eliza is referring to her ‘extrapolated data’ when she says she knows all personalities.

    (5) I do not know, however, to what extent Eliza is comparing here extrapolated data to current data.

    (6) I am simply keeping an eye out for inconsistencies in what Eliza says, or, for that matter, anybody else says, or I say.

    .

    • My dear. my realities are not MEST fact based, I am not comparing my universe to any science finding.. now, if you are comparing inconsistencies with science based whatever, that is not fair to science and not fair to me..

    • V… as I said before, the reality I have on anything is cognation based.. I have not studied any subject in this life not even spirituality, from books, I have not studied masters of different arts etc… T
      For this reason I keep saying It is my reality, as you noted I do not quote sayings proverbs, axioms from anyone,

    • V… V… I have no idea how science find their reality, how they come to agree on certain things, since I don’t read scientific journals-magazines since I have no interest in science..
      Since 73 I only had one interest, to confront the universe, item by item… that means consideration by consideration….I am only interested in the WHY’s the reasons we consider, assume, and agree. The rest to me what others do is irrelevant..

  26. This is in response to comment-549 by Eliza

    “Chris, when there is one-ness, there is no difficulty knowing the entety the intangible, the infinite. Knowing self is knowing others, but the word ”others” is a consideration, so is persons, group, personality.”

    There seems to be more extrapolation than one-ness.

    .

    • Lots of words are being written here and stomping all over the same things in my opinion. For instance, “oneness” for me means the spiritual residue of as-ising MEST. But then I think Vin says Hubbard says oneness is merging to become one with the MEST universe, which is the opposite. In Vin’s quote, Hubbard got it completely different than I do. On the other hand, in other places, Hubbard seemed to get it just the way I do… I am glad I don’t care about what Hubbard thinks and happy I am just going on worrying about what I thinks.

        • Hubbard seem to have two different realities. One when he was high under the influence of drugs, and another when he was not under that influence.

          .

        • He had a vivid imagination and good command of the language but his technical work sort of started out good then began to zig-zag. I don’t really mean to go off on this Hubbard tangent but with him and his complete works, he seemed to not address and to not resolve many things that we now wonder about.

        • He had it going both ways. In this example of Vin’s he slammed Hinduism but then turned it all around upside down and backwards… Maybe he didn’t understand Hinduism, maybe he didn’t understand how he wanted to go with Scientology and maybe he told so many lies he couldn’t keep his story straight. Curious that. I wonder if he was simply a great story teller or what since he seemed never to make up his mind what theta was and didn’t seem able to help himself when the end drew near.

  27. Eliza said, “i just went over to see Geirs blog… Ohhhhhh. a new broom is at work… reorganizing.. out lining what is right and what is wrong…”

    I have now come to believe that it is a waste of time to think in terms of right and wrong. That mode of thinking presupposes too much.

    .

  28. Chris said in comment-617:

    “ah yes, a firm foundation for that frame of reference only. But the firm foundation is both an illusion and a thought stopper and works against looking for the next inconsistency. This is why I say I no longer seek a firm foundation — I do not need this. If one should pop up I would be pleased but do not expect this to happen. Neither do I expect it not to happen.”

    To me the consistency seems to act as the firm foundation. Here I don’t intend “firm” to mean any fixation or frame of reference. I only intend “firm” to mean the background of knowable.

    Any consistency can simply be put aside as “resolved” and relegated to the realm of knowable. I don’t have to worry about it any more. I can now focus on the path to unknowable by pulling on inconsistencies.

    That is my fundamental philosophy at the moment.

    .

    • V…”Any consistency can simply be put aside as “resolved” and relegated to the realm of knowable. I don’t have to worry about it any more. I can now focus on the path to unknowable by pulling on inconsistencies.””
      The way I say it , The consistency is the knowledge attained in the form of cognitions, so that come from as-ising, The incoming stimulation would be the inconsistencies… so now I understand how you use the words.. Thanks.

    • We could also say that consistent is defined as exhibiting a momentary lack of inconsistency. We have to be careful about the adjectives we begin to lean on.

      Really I am seeing your points. But I don’t think we can rely on assumptions about consistent data except momentarily… A little bit of “tomatoe-tomahto” going on here.

      • I see consistency like a sea, and inconsistency like a rock of salt. Once the inconsistency disssolves into the sea of consistency it is gone. You cannot identify it any more. So, there is no ‘momentary lack of inconsistency’. But a new inconsistency may now present itself.

        Any consistent data would be like taking a cup of water out of that sea of consistency. You can take out randomly from any part of the sea. I do not understand what assumptions you are talking about here. If you are considering that a rock of salt (inconsistency) may precipitate out of that sea (of consistency), then fine. Treat it as a new inconsistency in a new unit of time.

        .

        • Yes, I get you. I am fond of your metaphor, but this effect can be described or maybe rather perceived by zooming into and out of a fractal construct and the construct can be; might only be in our thoughts. From farther away, a frame of reference can look smoother than closer up. There are a few ramifications to this view: 1. “As-is” might be an illusion where nothing is dissolved. This is only offered as something to consider. 2. This might account for a real (as Rafael said) fractal out there. (reference to Real World Out There) 3. This might account for the lack of documented OT phenomena in the real world. 4. Imagine “watching TV snow” a fractal construct doesn’t particularly have to “be out there.” The construct can be our perception only. 5. “Looking closely” at the fractal shows up the inconsistency. Moving yet “closer” allows us to “move past the inconsistency” relegating it to the background of the known (as you say.)

          Just some alternative ways of looking at things off the top of my thoughts this morning and my point being that reality may be very fluid indeed. There might be a consistent World View waiting for us which totally blows away anything that we have been thinking. The Wachowskis created an alternative reality with The Matrix which, like a religious belief, is hard to disprove. Again, not saying we live in the matrix that they described, but then on the other hand, if we generally wanted to assert this, who could disprove it? (Nevermind the lack of empirical evidence.) Just throwing out some things this morning and being the left brain to your right brain or was that the other way around?

      • (1) My experience with as-is-ness has been that inconsistencies get converted into understanding. But, yes, one may speculate otherwise. However, I don’t understand why one would do that? So, my question to you would be, “What has been your experience with as-is-ness?”

        (2) I have no idea what Real Fractal out there means. What do you actually see? Let’s have some raw data. Fractal only provides a model.

        (3) What do you consider to be OT phenomena?

        (4) I don’t quite get what you mean here.

        (5) Fractal is a repeating pattern. It is like harmonics. Understanding the pattern can reduce the whole fractal to undertanding no matter how interminable it may appear.

        (6) Logic and looking are two very different things. Proving and disproving is part of logic and not of looking. Looking is only concerned with better understanding of what is actually there. You either understand it or you don’t. Keep looking closer and closer and justify nothing, until you understand it.

        .

    • I am getting my directions and orientation a little bit turned around. Can you make an example of the “background of knowable” for me so I can get back on track?

      What I am trying to say is that I thought that when we viewed reality as it is, then it tended to become diaphanous.

      • di·aph·a·nous 
        1. very sheer and light; almost completely transparent or translucent.
        2. delicately hazy.

        As-is-ness makes the form disappear, but there is always a conservation of ‘space-energy-mass’. Mass may disappear, but its equivalent may be gained as energy and space. I believe that ‘gain in understanding’ may be looked upon as ‘gain in space’. There is much to be understood about space. So, massive reality may disappear and in its place, deep understanding may be gained.

        The ‘background of knowable’ may be better described as the ‘sea of consistency’ because we know it is consistent and we do not have to bother with it any more. We are after the inconsistencies. These inconsistencies may be interminable because absolute consistency is not attainable. It is this interminable nature of inconsistencies that we are calling unknowable.

        An inconsistency is an indicator of something not known. By leveling inconsistencies we are converting unknown to known. But this train of inconsistencies is like an interminable infinite series. The last term of this infinite series would always be unknowable.

        The above seems to put unknowable in a sort of mathematical perspective.

        .

        • This: “There is much to be understood about space. So, massive reality may disappear and in its place, deep understanding may be gained.” is a great quote. Maybe the old adage, “Look closely” is all there is to understanding. Could this be accounted for by a fractal and holographic construct in our minds?

          There is much to be understood about space. So, massive reality may disappear and in its place, deep understanding may be gained.

  29. Elizabeth said, “weeeeeeeeeeeeeellllllll…… since i all ready sorted out all the inconsistencies i can play with anything I like…. I am not here in this blog to sort out anything… i am here because I like you boys and i like to communicate with you two..how is that sit with you my friend?”

    I guess I am still far behind. I am here to observe, discuss and learn until I disappear.

    .

        • Elizabeth, Let me back my question up a bit. I thought I understood you to say that there were many OT beings here abouts Earth. Maybe I misunderstood. Just here on this comment that I’m replying to you say that they are here on Earth only because of implants but that they come here to key-out? Please say a little more about this?

        • C….Nobody comes here to get keyed out, this is a prison planet, this here place is not a holiday resort
          Its heavy energies hold the being here=which are considerations; everyone is stuck here because of the implants.
          But there are many ways to get keyed out, Zen’s do, some Buddhist do it, other martial art forms can achieve and do achieve incredible keyed out states. But these keyed out states will not as-is those implanted material and each being will be getting back having a body here sooner or later.
          One must as-is all considerations which are in any way related being a human, thinking as one, believing in any considerations before one can leave this planet.

        • Elizabeth, the heat of the summer has left leaving a beautiful afterglow that is warm and yet cool at the same time . . . And dry, very dry making the sweat evaporate right away. No stickiness here in Phoenix.

        • sounds wonderful… we here inhale liquid air… 100% humidity… that is the reason it seems so cold.. to the bone, and the bodyhappen to be slim… no extra padding on the body which could hold the heat for me to anchor my-self to.

        • good god! I look it up, it is in the 80 over there and will be sunny every day… it is raining and 40 now, will go down to 32-34 overnight.. I cant even say this is hell, because hell has hot temp…

        • Not at all, not to me… V… darling if you would have had lot and lots of auditing than that question by Chris would be fine….
          By the way the as-ised items that is what they are…”as-ised” and because they are , vanished therefore never ever can be re-stimulated again… since they no longer exist!

        • now, because you understandt that you can see what it means when i say i have as-ised the MEST universe… the considerations, hundreds of thousands of them in session, you see, to as -is just one word thought would only a freaction of that one meaning.
          example: I am tired,
          i have always been tired
          i am for ever tired,
          i was born, tired,,
          everything makes me tired,
          walking makes me tired,
          talking with….. makes me tired
          i get tired if i work long hours
          just looking at you making me tired
          the kids make me tired being with them all the time,
          i am tired of all that shit you putting into our life,
          i am tired of you cheating on me
          the running 5 miles make me tired
          cleaning the garage out tired me out

          but to tired-ness there are other words-considerations are attached: heavy, whiped out, etc… dozens of different wording compositions.
          so sometimes in one session a clump of these considerations are erased at once but most of the time one has to address all considerations individualy.
          Now V… just think how many concepts there are, how many variations there are and than one has to confront the agreement one made to others and this is not only in one life time here but on the whole track!
          No one has any idea on this planet how much work -confrontation it takes to as-is all the consideration assumptions, agreement one has because of being here.
          But every thought you have its existing because you agreed to have it therefore they can be as-ised too when one as-is the MEST one as-ised the the thinking…

  30. Response to comment-679 by Elizabeth:

    It is the mystery sandwich created around sex to increase the attraction and the draw. Upper class ladies presenting themselves as weak, helpless, gentle critters, was just part of the excitement for the gentlemen. Unmentionables were also part of the excitement for the gentlemen. Such no-no’s were practiced by the ladies to simply enhance the ambience of mystery of their charms for men. I wonder if women were similary mystified about the charms of men. It seems that, for women, protection and shelter, which men could provide to them, was more important.

    It is my impression that women do not act as stupidly as men do under sexual stimulation.

    .

    • The ladies played out roles dictated by the that time, the right way to be, to do by the ethics code of the day… what was fashionable, what was a feminine… how the ideal female should be… weak, helpless, demure, modest, innocent looking, beautiful, shy… etc… that do not mean they were that.. only on the surface.

    • again, I only would know of my reality, but that was some years back… so again I could not give you my reality how I would act … more likely I would recomend to put on ice pack on. or go sit on ice..

    • Yes, it is a game where women seems to be more in control. But the interesting part of this game is that both parties have the same desire of pleasure through a common act, but lot of other games, and even black mail, occur during the way to that goal.

      It seems as if sexual desire provides a high “voltage”. Then by providing resistance one redirects the “current” and helps run many other “appliances”. Being an electrician, Chris, you should be able to expand on this.

      So, the most interesting part of understanding sex would be how this high voltage of sex is generated. This mechanism seems to be built into all life systems. It even surpasses the mechanism of hunger.

      .

  31. Response to comment-689 by Chris:

    “He had a vivid imagination and good command of the language but his technical work sort of started out good then began to zig-zag. I don’t really mean to go off on this Hubbard tangent but with him and his complete works, he seemed to not address and to not resolve many things that we now wonder about.”

    .

    I have been reading MUHAMMAD by Karen Armstrong during the recent vacation. This book is about the early beginnings of Islam. Muhammad (the prophet) used to go into trance, during which he recited the verses of Qu’ran. These verses were of very high quality poetry, with deep meaning. Under normal conditions Muhammad was unable to write poetry of good quality. Also, the understanding of these verses of Qu’ran did not come automatically to Muhammad.

    So, there was a disconnect in terms of abilities and understanding, when Muhammad was in a trance state and then in the normal state. It seems that Hubbard suffered through a similar disconnect.

    Hubbard did get many wonderful insights, but possibly under drugs, or through automatic writing. It doesn’t necessarily mean that he had a thorough understanding of these insights. He wrote otherwise too, and in those moment, it seems that his neurons were not firing with the same intensity. Thus, we find inconsistencies in his writings. But these inconsistencies are hidden from people who are devoted to KSW written by Hubbard. The KSW itself has many inconsistencies, but they are hard to perceive through all the inbred justifications in Scientology. Hubbard did set up that kind of environment and insisted on devotion where he would be perceived to be right all the time.

    .

    • It is like intuition coming through in massive doses from the unknowable region. The self is now left to cope with it.

      So, Hubbard had a lot of intuition coming through. We are now left with the task of separating the actual intuition from the curves that get introduced into it by the presuppositions, assumptions, expectations and speculations advanced by the “self”.called Hubbard.

      .

      • You know V…. what make you think or any one else for the fact that they are better know better and because of that more able to sort out LRH’s work?
        I think that is simply ridiculous, none of you has come up with a better solution which works WHEN USED!!!!!
        BUT IT HAS TO BE USED IN ORDER TO ACHIEVE RESULTS!!!!!
        Shit…. i never seen so many critics in my life in one bunch as the so called scientologists… They all want to improve but they have not understood it in the first place… if they would have than every bloody one of them would be continuing on the bridge, regardless they are no longer in the church.

        • I try not to bring “I” or “self” into the discussion. I prefer simply looking at the phenomenon. I see massive dose of intuition coming though LRH, and then many curves into that intuition.

          So there is brilliant stuff in Scientology, which is very consistent. But then there are deep inconsistencies also present in Scientology. I pointed one of those inconsistencies out here: Identity versus Individuality.

          .

    • Nia, what you wrote becomes possible as one drops attachment to one’s considerations and stands outside of them, appreciating them without any filters.

      .

        • I have no argument. We are a part of that dance of reality in a way. We don’t exist otherwise.

          In my engineering sense, we are the center of considerations that we are holding on to. These considerations (ideas, thoughts, presumptions, imaginations, speculations, etc.) are what make us up.

          .

        • Yes, we are the center of considerations that we hold on to and the reality we experience reflects that consideration-dense center.

          By the way, hopefully my use of the word “argue” was not offensive. I meant it in an open sense to delve a little deeper into the idea.

          Many thanks for your thoughtful interaction.

          Nia

        • Nia, No you were not offensive at all. I like your pretty face and bubbling personality.

          I think that mental reality and physical reality go hand in hand. They cannot be cleanly separated.

          You may click on my icon to go to my blog to see what kind of subjects that interest me. I want to know what underlies reality. Such investigation can be very dry and not at all juicy like what you write. Here is one of my recent posts.

          Death

          Every person interests me, for there is so much to learn there.

          .

        • Hi Vinaire,

          Thank you!

          I checked out your post and it’s very interesting. I will think about it some more and try to add a comment.

          I too like to understand what underlies the universe and to spend time thinking about it, even more so when that can be a dialog with interesting people like you, Chris and others here.
          Nia

        • Hi Vinaire,

          Wow, that is fantastic and exactly what I needed at this moment when I am creating a new story and facing blank page number one. What a gift. Thank you,

          Nia

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