In studying the religion of Scientology, I was taught that there was a problem trying to keep Scientology working, and this problem was due to the pre-disposition of humanity to wreck any type of self-betterment practice or program. The solution to this I was taught was to implement and to practice the 10 major tenets of the unviolable scripture known as “Keeping Scientology Working.” This scripture written by L. Ron Hubbard in 1965 and indexed as HCO Policy Letter of 7 February 1965, Reissued 15 June 1970.
Recently, thanks to a few stimulating discussions with some friends of mine, it has occurred to me to test the truth of the basic tenets of Scientology and to do so beginning with the most cherished and most published of the Scientology scriptures. Oddly the scriptures in question are not the secret OT (operating thetan – superman) levels but a small series of dire admonitions placed prominently in the front of every course-pack issued by the Church of Scientology. This was done at L. Ron Hubbard’s direction.
I’ve written this post to possibly stimulate discussion of the veracity of Scientology materials and to ask the heretical question “Does Scientology have the correct technology? For your reference following is the text of this scripture:
Keeping Scientology Working
We have some time since passed the point of achieving uniformly workable technology. The only thing now is getting the technology applied. If you can’t get the technology applied then you can’t deliver what’s promised. It’s as simple as that. If you can get the
technology applied, you can deliver what’s promised. The only thing you can be upbraided for by students or pcs is “no results”. Trouble spots occur only where there are “no
results”. Attacks from governments or monopolies occur only where there are “no results” or “bad results”. Therefore the road before Scientology is clear and its ultimate success
is assured if the technology is applied. So it is the task of the Assn or Org Sec, the HCO Sec, the Case Supervisor, the D of P, the D of T and all staff members to get the correct
technology applied. Getting the correct technology applied consists of:
One: Having the correct technology.
Two: Knowing the technology.
Three: Knowing it is correct.
Four: Teaching correctly the correct technology.
Five: Applying the technology.
Six: Seeing that the technology is correctly applied.
Seven: Hammering out of existence incorrect technology.
Eight: Knocking out incorrect applications.
Nine: Closing the door on any possibility of incorrect technology.
Ten: Closing the door on incorrect application.
One above has been done.
Two has been achieved by many.
Three is achieved by the individual applying the correct technology in a
proper manner and observing that it works that way.
Four is being done daily successfully in most parts of the world.
Five is consistently accomplished daily.
Six is achieved by instructors and supervisors consistently.
Seven is done by a few but is a weak point.
Eight is not worked on hard enough.
Nine is impeded by the “reasonable” attitude of the not quite bright.
Ten is seldom done with enough ferocity.
Seven, Eight, Nine and Ten are the only places Scientology can bog down in any area. The reasons for this are not hard to find. (a) A weak certainty that it works in Three above can lead to weakness in Seven, Eight, Nine and Ten. (b) Further, the not-too-bright have a bad point on the button Self-Importance. (c) The lower the IQ, the more the individual is shut off from the fruits of observation. (d) The service facs of people make them defend themselves against anything they confront, good or bad, and seek to make it wrong. (e)
The bank seeks to knock out the good and perpetuate the bad. Thus, we as Scientologists and as an organization must be very alert to Seven, Eight, Nine and Ten.
In all the years I have been engaged in research I have kept my comm lines wide open for research data. I once had the idea that a group could evolve truth. A third of a century has thoroughly disabused me of that idea. Willing as I was to accept suggestions and data, only a handful of suggestions (less than twenty) had long-run value and none were major or basic; and when I did accept major or basic suggestions and used them, we went astray and I repented and eventually had to “eat crow”. On the other hand there have been thousands and thousands of suggestions and writings which, if accepted and acted upon, would have resulted in the complete destruction of all our work as well as the sanity of pcs. So I know what a group of people will do and how insane they will go in accepting unworkable “technology”. By actual record the percentages are about twenty to 100,000 that a group of human beings will dream up bad technology to destroy good technology. As we could have gotten along without suggestions, then, we had better steel ourselves to continue to do so now that we have made it. This point will, of course, be attacked as “unpopular”, “egotistical” and “undemocratic”. It very well may be. But it is also a survival point. And I don’t see that popular measures, self-abnegation and democracy have done
anything for Man but push him further into the mud. Currently, popularity endorses degraded novels, self-abnegation has filled the South East Asian jungles with stone idols and corpses, and democracy has given us inflation and income tax.
Our technology has not been discovered by a group. True, if the group had not supported me in many ways I could not have discovered it either. But it remains that if in its formative stages it was not discovered by a group, then group efforts, one can safely assume, will not add to it or successfully alter it in the future. I can only say this now that it is done. There remains, of course, group tabulation or co-ordination of what has been done, which will be valuable — only so long as it does not seek to alter basic principles and
successful applications. The contributions that were worthwhile in this period of forming the technology were help in the form of friendship, of defense, of organization, of dissemination, of application, of advices on results and of finance. These were great contributions and were, and are, appreciated. Many thousands contributed in this way and made us what we are. Discovery contribution was not however part of the broad picture.
We will not speculate here on why this was so or how I came to rise above the bank. We are dealing only in facts and the above is a fact — the group left to its own devices would not have evolved Scientology but with wild dramatization of the bank called “new ideas” would have wiped it out. Supporting this is the fact that Man has never before evolved workable mental technology and emphasizing it is the vicious technology he did evolve —
psychiatry, psychology, surgery, shock treatment, whips, duress, punishment, etc, ad infinitum. So realize that we have climbed out of the mud by whatever good luck and good sense, and refuse to sink back into it again. See that Seven, Eight, Nine and Ten above are ruthlessly followed and we will never be stopped. Relax them, get reasonable about it and we will perish. So far, while keeping myself in complete communication with all
suggestions, I have not failed on Seven, Eight, Nine and Ten in areas I could supervise closely. But it’s not good enough for just myself and a few others to work at this. Whenever this control as per Seven, Eight, Nine and Ten has been relaxed the whole organizational area has failed. Witness Elizabeth, N.J., Wichita, the early organizations and groups. They crashed only because I no longer did Seven, Eight, Nine and Ten. Then, when they were all messed up, you saw the obvious “reasons” for failure. But ahead of that they ceased to deliver and that involved them in other reasons. The common denominator of a group is the reactive bank. Thetans without banks have different responses. They only have their banks in common. They agree then only on bank principles. Person to person the bank is identical. So constructive ideas are individual and seldom get broad agreement in a human group. An individual must rise above an avid craving for agreement from a humanoid group to get anything decent done. The bank-agreement has been what has made Earth a Hell — and if you were looking for Hell and found Earth, it would certainly serve. War, famine, agony and disease has been the lot of Man. Right now the great governments of Earth have developed the means of frying
every Man, Woman and Child on the planet. That is Bank. That is the result of Collective Thought Agreement. The decent, pleasant things on this planet come from individual actions and ideas that have somehow gotten by the Group Idea. For that matter, look how we ourselves are attacked by “public opinion” media. Yet there is no more ethical group on this planet than ourselves. Thus each one of us can rise above the domination of the bank and then, as a group of freed beings, achieve freedom and reason. It is only the
aberrated group, the mob, that is destructive. When you don’t do Seven, Eight, Nine and Ten actively, you are working for the Bank dominated mob. For it will surely, surely (a) introduce incorrect technology and swear by it, (b) apply technology as incorrectly as possible, (c) open the door to any destructive idea, and (d) encourage incorrect application.
It’s the Bank that says the group is all and the individual nothing. It’s the Bank that says we must fail. So just don’t play that game. Do Seven, Eight, Nine and Ten and you will
knock out of your road all the future thorns. Here’s an actual example in which a senior executive had to interfere because of a pc spin: A Case Supervisor told Instructor A to have Auditor B run Process X on Preclear C. Auditor B afterwards told Instructor A that “It
didn’t work.” Instructor A was weak on Three above and didn’t really believe in Seven, Eight, Nine and Ten. So Instructor A told the Case Supervisor didn’t work on Preclear C.” Now this strikes directly at each of One to Six above in Preclear C, Auditor B, Instructor A and the Case Supervisor. It opens the door to the introduction of “new technology” and to
failure. What happened here? Instructor A didn’t jump down Auditor B’s throat, that’s all that happened. This is what he should have done: grabbed the auditor’s report and looked it over. When a higher executive on this case did so she found what the Case Supervisor and the rest missed: that Process X increased Preclear C’s TA to 25 TA divisions for the session but that near session end Auditor B Qed and Aed with a cognition and abandoned Process X while it still gave high TA and went off running one of Auditor B’s own manufacture, which nearly spun Preclear C. Auditor B’s IQ on examination turned out to be about 75. Instructor A was found to have huge ideas of how you must never invalidate anyone, even a lunatic. The Case Supervisor was found to be “too busy with admin to have any time for actual cases”. All right, there’s an all too typical example. The Instructor should have done Seven, Eight, Nine and Ten. This would have begun this way. Auditor B:
“That Process X didn’t work.” Instructor A: “What exactly did you do wrong?” Instant attack. “Where’s your auditor’s report for the session? Good. Look here, you were getting a lot of TA when you stopped Process X. What did you do?” Then the Pc wouldn’t have come close to a spin and all four of these would have retained certainty. In a year, I had four instances in one small group where the correct process recommended was reported not to have worked. But on review found that each one (a) had increased the TA, (b) had been abandoned, and (c) had been falsely reported as unworkable. Also, despite this abuse, in each of these four cases the recommended, correct process cracked the case. Yet they were reported as not having worked! Similar examples exist in instruction and these are all the more deadly as every time instruction in correct technology is flubbed, then the resulting error, uncorrected in the auditor, is perpetuated on every pc that auditor
audits thereafter. So Seven, Eight, Nine and Ten are even more important in a course than in supervision of cases.
Here’s an example: A rave recommendation is given a graduating student “because he gets more TA on pcs than any other student on the course!” Figures of 435 TA divisions a session are reported. “Of course his model session is poor but it’s just a knack he has” is also included in the recommendation. A careful review is undertaken because nobody at Levels 0 to IV is going to get that much TA on pcs. It is found that this student was never taught to read an E-Meter TA dial! And no instructor observed his handling of a meter and it was not discovered that he “overcompensated” nervously, swinging the TA 2 or 3
divisions beyond where it needed to go to place the needle at “set”. So everyone was about to throw away standard processes and model session because this one student “got such remarkable TA”. They only read the reports and listened to the brags and never looked at this student. The pcs in actual fact were making slightly less than average gain, impeded by a rough model session and misworded processes. Thus, what was making the pcs win (actual Scientology) was hidden under a lot of departures and errors.
I recall one student who was squirreling on an Academy course and running a lot of off-beat whole track on other students after course hours. The Academy students were in a state of electrification on all these new experiences and weren’t quickly brought under control and the student himself never was given the works on Seven, Eight, Nine and Ten so they stuck. Subsequently, this student prevented another squirrel from being straightened out and his wife died of cancer resulting from physical abuse. A hard, tough Instructor at that moment could have salvaged two squirrels and saved the life of a girl. But no, students had a right to do whatever they pleased. Squirreling (going off into weird practices or altering Scientology) only comes about from non-comprehension. Usually the non-comprehension is not of Scientology but some earlier contact with an off-beat humanoid practice which in its turn was not understood.
When people can’t get results from what they think is standard practice, they can be counted upon to squirrel to some degree. The most trouble in the past two years came from orgs where an executive in each could not assimilate straight Scientology. Under Instruction in Scientology they were unable to define terms or demonstrate examples of principles. And the orgs where they were got into plenty of trouble. And worse, it could not be straightened out easily because neither one of these people could or would duplicate
instructions. Hence, a debacle resulted in two places, directly traced to failures of instruction earlier. So proper instruction is vital. The D of T and his Instructors and all Scientology Instructors must be merciless in getting Four, Seven, Eight, Nine and Ten into effective action. That one student, dumb and impossible though he may seem and of no use to anyone, may yet some day be the cause of untold upset because nobody was interested enough to make sure Scientology got home to him.
With what we know now, there is no student we enrol who cannot be properly trained. As an Instructor, one should be very alert to slow progress and should turn the sluggards inside out personally. No system will do it, only you or me with our sleeves rolled up can crack the back of bad studenting and we can only do it on an individual student, never on a whole class only. He’s slow = something is awful wrong. Take fast action to correct it. Don’t wait until next week. By then he’s got other messes stuck to him. If you can’t
graduate them with their good sense appealed to and wisdom shining, graduate them in such a state of shock they’ll have nightmares if they contemplate squirreling. Then experience will gradually bring about Three in them and they’ll know better than to chase butterflies when they should be auditing. When somebody enrols, consider he or she has joined up for the duration of the universe — never permit an “open-minded” approach. If they’re going to quit let them quit fast. If they enrolled, they’re aboard, and if they’re
aboard, they’re here on the same terms as the rest of us — win or die in the attempt. Never let them be half-minded about being Scientologists. The finest organizations in history have been tough, dedicated organizations. Not one namby-pamby bunch of panty-waist dilettantes have ever made anything. It’s a tough universe. The social veneer makes it seem mild. But only the tigers survive — and even they have a hard time. We’ll survive because we are tough and are dedicated. When we do instruct somebody properly he becomes more and more tiger. When we instruct half-mindedly and are afraid to offend, scared to enforce, we don’t make students into good Scientologists and that lets
everybody down. When Mrs. Pattycake comes to us to be taught, turn that wandering doubt in her eye into a fixed, dedicated glare and she’ll win and we’ll all win. Humor her and we all die a little. The proper instruction attitude is, “You’re here so you’re a Scientologist. Now we’re going to make you into an expert auditor no matter what happens. We’d rather have you dead than incapable.” Fit that into the economics of the situation and lack of adequate time and you see the cross we have to bear. But we won’t have to bear it forever. The bigger we get the more economics and time we will have to do our job. And the only things which can prevent us from getting that big fast are areas in from One to Ten, Keep those in mind and we’ll be able to grow. Fast. And as we grow our shackles will be less and less. Failing to keep One to Ten, will make us grow less. So the ogre which might eat us up is not the government or the High Priests. It’s our possible failure to retain and practice our technology. An Instructor or Supervisor or Executive must challenge with ferocity instances of “unworkability”. They must uncover what did happen, what was run
and what was done or not done. If you have One and Two, you can only acquire Three for all by making sure of all the rest.
We’re not playing some minor game in Scientology. It isn’t cute or something to do for lack of something better. The whole agonized future of this planet, every Man, Woman and Child on it, and your own destiny for the next endless trillions of years depend on what you do here and now with and in Scientology. This is a deadly serious activity. And if we miss getting out of the trap now, we may never again have another chance. Remember, this is our first chance to do so in all the endless trillions of years of the past. Don’t muff it now because it seems unpleasant or unsocial to do Seven, Eight, Nine and Ten.
L. Ron Hubbard
Do them and we’ll win.
L. RON HUBBARD
I am interested in discussing whether the tenets of this scripture of the Church of Scientology makes sense to you and if so why; or if you beg to differ, please be specific or go over the individual points or commentary by the author to say why you do or do not agree with the validity or workability of these tenets. ~Chris
Chris Thompson 
((THIS IS NOT MY VIEWPOINT AND IS PRESENTED MERELY FOR DEBATE))
KSW is actually true.
The problem with the understanding of KSW is that people don’t fathom what is “workable” compared to what is “absolutely true.”
Others out there (most whom are no longer Scientologists) have argued that KSW is static and that a fixed process will produce variable results in regards to human development. Such people ACTUALLY THINK that everyone should be treated with an output in mind rather than processed through a clear and inflexible series of concepts.
On the surface, this appears viable and rational. But when viewed in the lens of eternity, said viewpoint is dangerous and will invariably lead to a world of people behaving like clubbed seals – downtrodden souls that cannot rise above the confusion of this world and don the boots that await them in the sky.
No. For them only a dwindling spiral remains.
KSW is oppressive for a reason. In the first few lifetimes of its application, it may cause some weaker beings to become less than human. It may make such beings seem robotic. But before one can get out of a condition, one must first accept the condition one is in and take automatic reposes and turn them into willful responses to overcome them. I will illustrate with a story.
Once there was a Samurai father who took his three year old son out to a lone tree. He tied his son to the tree. He then took a switch and started striking him with it.
At first the boy only cried and cowered. But the instant the boy reached for the switch, the father let him have the switch and released him.
Every day thereafter, the father repeated the process – an inflexible process, and invariable process. Every day, the intensity increased, forcing the boy to fight harder and harder to get the switch. One day, as a teen, the boy untied the cords, grabbed the switch, wrestled the father into a ju-jitsu hold, tied the father to the tree and held the switch to his face.
The father laughed out loud until the boy cried in gratitude.
The boy untied the father and hugged him for a long time. It was said that as a Samurai, this boy was incredibly fierce. Often one heard of him the phrase, “There is something in his eyes.”
Indeed.
It’s the will to survive.
Every night the boy went to sleep, he awoke stronger the next day to face the inflexible switch. Just like how every time we sleep in death, we are either stronger or weaker than before. Imagine how the boy would be if the father just fed him dumplings and donuts and let him spend his life in front of a game console.
What people forget is that KSW goes across lifetimes. It is not “just for today.” It’s not caring about whether or not someone gets it in THIS lifetime, but rather that THEY DO EVENTUALLY GET IT. And even if other squirrel processes may unleash their freedom sooner, the greater good must be applied for the planet and galaxy. So what if someone has to do it five more lifetimes? We aren’t in the “clearing boutique business” we are out to clear the planet.
Ron didn’t say it was going to be easy. And yeah, Einstein flunked out of the fixed processing environment we call “public education.” But the fixed process was STILL what he needed. It was the stone in his shoe to urge him to change.
Frankly, I’m tired of all this KSW bashing. If you so want to do this, why don’t you just publish KSW here so we can reference it directly?
((AGAIN, THIS IS NOT MY POINT OF VIEW.))
Excellent response KG. Well written and insightful.
I enjoy reading your ability to assume other’s point of view.
Buddhism and Scientology… both are about getting it in this lifetime.
.
William “””What people forget is that KSW goes across lifetimes. It is not “just for today.” It’s not caring about whether or not someone gets it in THIS lifetime, but rather that THEY DO EVENTUALLY GET IT. And even if other squirrel processes may unleash their freedom sooner, the greater good must be applied for the planet and galaxy. So what if someone has to do it five more lifetimes? We aren’t in the “clearing boutique business” we are out to clear the planet.””
I have written about the above more than one occasion… But no one will get it because it is not REAL-SOLID AGREED UPON CONSIDERATION BY EVERY ONE!!!! I even posted that to Geirs blog beside mine.. It was ignored as most of my posting..
W:The problem with the understanding of KSW is that people don’t fathom what is “workable” compared to what is “absolutely true.”
And that too is the fact. absolute truth has nothing to do with the what is workable…
Workable means just that. when is used it accomplishes what it intended for. Light switch on the wall do that, what it was sold for, starts the juice running in the wire to the bulb…
good post William…
Good post Elizabeth.
🙂
Elizabeth what is this point of view you speak of. I missed it.
“I have written about the above more than one occasion… But no one will get it because it is not REAL-SOLID AGREED UPON CONSIDERATION BY EVERY ONE!!!! I even posted that to Geirs blog beside mine.. It was ignored as most of my posting..”
that it is not for just now since knowledge it is already in the universe and we all have our time when we reach and take what it is needed: when we are ready for to receive…. so life times and how long has that will be reallly has no meaning… since it takes, long as it takes..
Buddhism and Scientology… both are about getting it in this lifetime.
.
This policy letter was originally issued on February 7, 1965. It was reissued on June 15, 1970.
This was the distribution of who it was issued to, taken from the top left hand corner of the policy letter:
****************************
Remimeo
Sthil Students
Assn/Org Sec Hat
HCO Sec Hat
Case Sup Hat
Ds of P Hat
Ds of T Hat
Staff Member Hat
Franchise
******************************
My Notes:
Remimeo means that the policy can be set up on a mimeo machine and reproduced for distribution.
It was to be distributed to students at Saint Hill (Sthil Students). It was to be included in hat packs (manuals) for the positions listed.
Franchise meant that the Franchise holders (mission holders) received a copy.
It was NOT broad public issue.
After the distribution, comes the information that was included in the June 15, 1970 reissue:
****************************************
Note: Neglect of this Pol Ltr has caused great hardship on staffs, has cost countless millions and made it necessary in 1970 to engage in an all-out International effort to restore basic Scientology over the world. Within 5 years after the issue of this PL with me off the lines, violation had almost destroyed orgs. “Quickie grades” entered in and denied gain to tens of thousands of cases. Therefore actions which neglect or violate this Policy Letter are HIGH CRIMES resulting in Comm Evs on ADMINISTRATORS and EXECUTIVES. It is not “entirely a tech matter” as its neglect destroys orgs and caused a 2-year slump. IT IS THE BUSINESS OF EVERY STAFF MEMBER to enforce it.
****************************************
My notes:
LRH is talking about his departure to start the Sea Project in mid 1966. From then, until September 1972, he was either at sea or living abroad with his family. He goes to New York in September 1972, and the following 10 months is a period where no one seems to know his exact whereabouts.
From 1965 on, the bulk of the issues to do with conditions and statistics were issued. Management by statistic is in full swing. Some time around 1967 or 1968, the first Sea Org Mission is sent to “get ethics in” — according to Joe Van Staden: “The first mission’s purpose was mainly to assert and affirm SO authority and presence.” http://aidathomas.wordpress.com/2011/10/23/birth-of-the-sea-org-%E2%80%93-the-die-is-cast/
While it may have been a period of failed application on the part of orgs, it was also a period of institution of harsh ethics in orgs. Joe sums it up: “Anyway as it turned out, attempts to handle ‘troublesome sources’ in Scientology through tech weren’t working and ethics action was resorted to. What was originally a Qualifications Division function was replaced by ethics. In effect the review auditor was replaced by the ethics officer. ”
Also in June 1970, LRH releases the bulletins on expanded grades, simultaneous to the release of this KSW policy letter. Throughout the mid-sixties, work on the Student Hat materials was completed.
The situation being addressed is described in the May 1970 policy letter, CUTATIVES. You can read the quote from it here: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/alt.religion.scientology/ZlSL2DnTh4M
In a nutshell, to make their statistics go up, staffs cut down checksheets and materials and requirements for attesting to grade/level completions.
Not surprising, given the harsh ethics treatments in orgs for failing to have up-statistics. It is interesting to note that implementation of management by statistics in the Thatcher government in England in the 1970s saw cutatives used by government employees as a solution to the problem of making quota, when one’s job was on the line.
As I see it, this is the crux of the problem. In the zeal to push in “standards,” extremely punitive measures were introduced. There is no recognition that from 1965 to 1970, the entire line-up of auditing was reworked into the grade chart known as the Bridge to Total Freedom. Statistics from one period with a completely different operating basis both organizationally and technically are compared to another. Also, we have the introduction of the concept of SPs as administrators and a host of offenses to do with KSW.
My opinion: WRONG WHY for the technical failures. I say this because while the orgs were struggling and going through all kinds of problems that seemed to require harsh and restrictive policies, the franchise network was growing tremendously — that network was not subjected to harsh ethics, in fact, there was policy issued to the effect that “it is not our policy to deal harshly with franchise.”
In reality, the runway to becoming an auditor was becoming more and more difficult and even dangerous to the auditor. Many penalties for non-standard applications entered in. Ethics was promoted as a means to create a “safe space in which auditing could occur” but in fact, it was the very “tech” that introduced a very harsh and unsafe operating environment that went against the most basic premise of Scientology auditing, which was that auditing cannot occur in an unsafe environment. There is nothing safe about an environment in which people are frantically trying to get their stats up so they won’t be put in lower conditions.
@Maria, I can rant quite a bit when I get fired up on this topic and one of the reasons is that in the 70’s when Dianetic Clear was issued and lots and lots of idle Scientologists got fired up and the “clear number” went above 10 thousand and then 20 thousand and we were joking that one day as were clearing the stars that when it was found out that we were indeed “Earth Clears” that there would be some fanfare connected to this status. It was just a very lovely dream that I could imagine the environment becoming better and more sane where the able could prosper and honest beings could have rights… But then even that was turned around into a type of back-handed weapon against the very people who dreamed it. Very frustrating for me.
if every person would went up on the Bridge as they have planned it at first and not blown off because obsticles than that dream would be a reality by now for every one of those dreamers…
The Tech works but it hase to be used-applied .
@Elizabeth — of course, you are right — if you want to get anything out of auditing you have to do the auditing! What I encountered along the way in Scientology was an instilled doubt / concern about what auditing processes one should do, could do, safe to do, etc. There are literally hundreds of processes. It has been a relief to learn that you use a very simple process in a very focused way for prolonged periods of time — a workhorse process — and have made tremendous inroads with it.
It seems that between 1965 – 1970, there was a big shift in operating basis from relaxed auditing environment to harshly controlled environment. Relaxed auditing environment in the franchises continued to be very popular and led to greater expansion of Scientology, whereas, the controlled environment in the orgs led to many problems and contraction.
It may be said that LRH thought that a harsh environment was necessary to protect Scientology from government infilteration. But that problem was not that evident in the franchises that such harsh measures were needed.
It is my theory that LRH was not ready to let Scientology movement grow on its own. He wanted to have a Scientology empire entirely to himself for his own glory. He found his havingness slipping as he found that the Scientology movement was assuming a life of its own.
.
@Maria: Such an astute post. Wrong why is right, lots of them beginning with the initial note:
“Note: Neglect of this Pol Ltr has caused great hardship on staffs, has cost countless millions and made it necessary in 1970 to engage in an all-out International effort to restore basic Scientology over the world. Within 5 years after the issue of this PL with me off the lines, violation had almost destroyed orgs. . . ”
I don’t think staff ever had to suffer and to blame their incompetence to apply this PL is a wrong why. I know in my short mission experience, the revolving door hiring policy, and greedy international management was a better reason for hardships on staff. And musical chairs? — off topic for this policy letter but hard not to consider when trying to understand correct whys for the chronic problems of Scientology management. The massive build-up of charge around the violation of this anti-musical chairs policy was so blatant and so sure to occur that sometimes I think that it was suppressively written simply to provide the opposing terminal of what became an engorged personal and group GPM.
Handling staff and finally public with a barage of continuous ethics and ignoring the other two corners of this triangle of tech and admin are in my mind more correct whys for the corrupt condition of the Church today.
@Chris — I agree with your conclusion on what are more correct whys for what happened to the Church.
Lately, my own efforts at untangling my ball of yarn have taken me through my original introduction and experiences with Scientology. a very charged area it turns out!
I and my friends were wet behind the ears, genuinely enthused and full of promise as we entered into the Scientology scene of the mid 70s at a little Mission on the backroads of Scientology. We thought that all those ahead of us on the road, higher on the bridge, experienced as auditors and staff were so much more knowledgeable than us, so much more aware, so very experienced that it was daunting to graduate from the introductory course room to the official Academy.
We thought, wow, here at last, a path that was nice and broad and stable and certain at our fingertips, just crack those books and you’re good to go! Read it, drill it, do it! All taped out so you could avoid the rocks and shoals and the crazy mirror house aspect of maya / illusion dropping you head first into yet another miasma of paradox and confusion. No more blind alleys and false prophets. Wonderful! And it was wonderful zooming down this freeway of discovery. confident that someone had been there ahead of us and knew where we were going and which turn to take. Couldn’t be better!
In fact, at the end of the first year, we found it to be so good that we concluded that we should really apply to be on staff and focus our efforts entirely on this wonderful highway to the stars. We were happy, confident graduates of the Comm Course, Student Hat and HQS, all fresh and shiny from our wholly successful co-audits and life repairs. Our home and work environments were doing great — we used what we learned to create and repair our relationships thus making our network of friends a safe and sane environment. We thought everyone did that and that staff would be a veritable wonderland of more of that!
What we did not understand was that WE created that environment with what WE knew and carried out in reality. People loved to come to our home, our space and just be there and share it and contribute to it.
Within a year on staff, it all changed. Horribly. Promised a base wage, we we informed that was off-policy, a promise that could not be made. We would have to get part time jobs until the Mission could pay that base wage in proportionate staff pay. We learned that we had to do staff courses first and learn our jobs before there would be any auditor training or auditing for us. We learned that there were evil people in the world, lost in nightmares of incidents, working always to destroy all that was good and wonderful. One had to be alert and on guard to detect them and handle them quickly before they poisoned and destroyed. We learned that we had a wealth of policy to apply that would result in amazing growth and prosperity — all we had to was read it, drill it, and apply it.
We were assured it was so by the KSW policy:
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KEEPING SCIENTOLOGY WORKING
HCO Sec or Communicator Hat Check on all personnel and new Personnel as taken on.
We have some time since passed the point of achieving uniformly workable technology.
The only thing now is getting the technology applied.
If you can’t get the technology applied then you can’t deliver what’s promised. It’s as simple as that. If you can get the technology applied, you can deliver what’s promised.
The only thing you can be upbraided for by students or pcs is “no results”. Trouble spots occur only where there are “no results”. Attacks from governments or monopolies occur only where there are “no results” or “bad results”.
Therefore the road before Scientology is clear and its ultimate success is assured if the technology is applied.
So it is the task of the Assn or Org Sec, the HCO Sec, the Case Supervisor, the D of P, the D of T and all staff members to get the correct technology applied.
One: Having the correct technology.
Two: Knowing the technology.
Three: Knowing it is correct.
Four: Teaching correctly the correct technology.
Five: Applying the technology.
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But we learned the hard way that it was not so simple. Which policy? When? Hours spent poring over policies to try to figure out the right thing policy, the right technology to apply. THE RIGHT THING TO DO. Alright, all we had to do was get a conceptual understanding and voila! the path would be clear and simple and we would do our part to create this wonderful world! After all, the road was clear before us and our success assured if we just applied the correct technology.
Armed with our hat packs, we set about to create our posts to the highest possible standards of policy. It was all in writing after all. Just read it, drill it, do it. Oddly, we had to start from scratch. None of the things in those policy letters were in place in that Mission. The Mission Holder hated most of the policy letters and would come along and determine that we should apply this one but not that one and we got yelled at for implementing staff recruitment policies and it was just a melee of confusion. Staff in normal and above — it sounded to so good in policy and in practice was a near impossibility. Just drop the conditions and all would be well. Not true. And there were hundreds of people in the CF who didn’t want to talk to us, just wanted to be left alone. Now what?!!
Within two years, all of the original and very experienced staff and auditors were gone, finished with their contracts and you can be sure that they didn’t want to continue on staff. Poof! They would disappear off the lines, never to be seen again.
The Guardian’s Office arrived with briefings on the threats to our little Mission, governments who hated us, psychs who wished to hurt us, conspiracies of hate and fear. Orders to install night watches, make people petition for service if they’d ever seen a psych, rip off of staff to serve the dire needs of the GO programs. Then orders to install crosses and ministerial dog collars and a new sign in the window — The CHURCH of Scientology, Mission of …
Then new courses that must be done NOW NOW NOW. A new auditor’s TR course. No auditors were allowed to audit until they did this course. To let them audit without this course was a high crime. No more Ruth Minshull or Peter Gillham books. No more live lectures on ARC. No. You may not offer the processes in most of the books. Not the correct technology after all. But now you can offer the original Book 1 auditing in a seminar. No more HSDC, no, it must be NED. No more OT 4,5,6, 7. Now its NED for OTs. Mass exodus as staff and public rushed to AO to get this magical auditing that would make it possible to postulate everything right. On and on and on it went. SHIFT SHIFT SHIFT SHIFT.
And with this CONSTANT shift, these three became an exercise in frustration:
One: Having the correct technology.
Two: Knowing the technology.
Three: Knowing it is correct.
Looking back with what I now know, I see that we were standing on quicksand and whatever was there, we created.
We didn’t know it, but we weren’t alone:
http://workabletechnology.com/?p=454
It seems that the basic effort on Hubbard’s part was to get a runaway movement under his authoritative control.
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@ Maria, I do understand that Scientology wasn’t supposed to be complete or perfect, only workable system. On my own, I’ve been able to take what I knew and understood of this subject to polish off goals that sat waiting for culmination since I took an interest in the subject decades ago. And I never forget a favorite quote of yours when on this type of subject which was “Scientology doesn’t work, people work.” Scientology is a bag of tools, etc., and is as workable as someone can work it.
@ Chris: Thanks for reminding me of my statement — Scientology doesn’t work, people work. I am having an expanding reality on this. Odd how that works. It starts with a statement that is just intuitive really, and then blossoms out into a deep comprehension or outright rejection. I am glad you made this post so I can explore this “blossoming” and I hope you will not mind if I post here, where I am sure that you will bring up points that will bring sharper focus or more confusion to untangle.
That “blossoming” as you wrote is for me a metaphor for the fractal iterations that I believe can mathematically describe the mechanics of this growing shifting changing world. I see the fractal “blossom” and then in comes a new seed — maybe some freewill variable, maybe not, but different just the same — then bing! — Off into a new direction. This is for me the amusement ride to beat all amusement rides! When we sense and breath and smell and feel — wow! Life isn’t an abomination to yearn to be detached from and neither is it a goo that we should compulsively cling to. It’s not wrong to enjoy stimulation anymore than it is right to wallow in the stimulation. Balance in Beauty might be my new motto.
I like your new motto!
You should edit the comment though, you didn’t close the italics on your motto and now all the posts following your comment are in italics!
I found my mistake — an inadvertant space bar where it didn’t belong — corrected it. But the posts now continue to be in italics. I will persevere until I fix it…
Experiment
Will it close the italic?
Nope. You have to edit it!
I just made soup… you can drop by and share a bowl…heavily spiced with affinity… good for the soul..
no hushm please.
Got it! . . .
Continuing on with my dissection of KSW!
It sounds so clean and so simple doesn’t it?
“We have some time since passed the point of achieving uniformly workable technology.
The only thing now is getting the technology applied.”
TECHNOLOGY. It sounds so cut and dried. So 1 + 1 = 2 every time. Uniform, like beautiful mathematics or binary code. Just punch that formula in and out the other end comes a result. RESULT. The only thing that we can be upbraided for is a lack of RESULTS.
So I looked up the dictionary and etymology on results and technology:
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RESULT: 1. something that happens as a consequence; outcome, 2. Mathematics . a quantity, expression, etc., obtained by calculation, 3. Often, results. a desirable or beneficial consequence, outcome, or effect: We had definite results within weeks.
TECHNOLOGY: 1.the branch of knowledge that deals with the creation and use of technical means and their interrelation with life, society, and the environment, drawing upon such subjects as industrial arts, engineering, applied science, and pure science, 2.the terminology of an art, science, etc.; technical nomenclature, 3.a technological process, invention, method, or the like.
4. the sum of the ways in which social groups provide themselves with the material objects of their civilization.
TECHNICAL:
1. of, relating to, or specializing in industrial, practical, or mechanical arts and applied sciences: a technical institute
2. skilled in practical and mechanical arts rather than theoretical or abstract thinking
3. relating to or characteristic of a particular field of activity: the technical jargon of linguistics
4. existing by virtue of a strict application of the rules or a strict interpretation of the wording: a technical loophole in the law ; a technical victory
5. of, derived from, or showing technique: technical brilliance
6. (of a financial market) having prices determined by internal speculative or manipulative factors rather than by general or economic conditions: a technical rally
and the etymology:
result: (v.) early 15c., from M.L. resultare “to result,” in classical Latin “to spring forward, rebound,” frequentative of pp. of resilire “to rebound” (see resilience). Related: Resulted; resulting.
resilience: (n.) 1620s, from L. resiliens, prp. of resilire “to rebound, recoil,” from re- “back” (see re-) + salire “to jump, leap” (see salient). Cf. result.
salient: 1560s, “leaping,” a heraldic term, from L. salientem (nom. saliens), prp. of salire “to leap,” from PIE root *sel- “to jump” (cf. Gk. hallesthai “to leap,” M.Ir. saltraim “I trample,” and probably Skt. ucchalati “rises quickly”). The meaning “pointing outward” (preserved in military usage) is from 1680s; that of “prominent, striking” first recorded 1840, from salient point (1670s), which refers to the heart of an embryo, which seems to leap, and translates L. punctum saliens, going back to Aristotle’s writings. Hence, the “starting point” of anything.
(current dictionary definitions of salient: 1. prominent or conspicuous: salient traits.
2. projecting or pointing outward: a salient angle. 3. leaping or jumping: a salient animal. 4. Heraldry . (of a beast) represented as leaping: a lion salient.)
technology: 1610s, “discourse or treatise on an art or the arts,” from Gk. tekhnologia “systematic treatment of an art, craft, or technique,” originally referring to grammar, from tekhno- (see techno-) + -logy. The meaning “science of the mechanical and industrial arts” is first recorded 1859. High technology attested from 1964; short form high-tech is from 1972.
techno- from Gk. tekhno-, combining form of tekhne “art, skill, craft, method, system,” probably from PIE root *tek- “shape, make” (cf. Skt. taksan “carpenter,” L. texere “to weave;” see texture).
texture (n.) early 15c., “network, structure,” from M.Fr. texture, from L. textura “web, texture, structure,” from stem of texere “to weave,” from PIE root *tek- “to make” (cf. Skt. taksati “he fashions, constructs,” taksan “carpenter;” Avestan taša “ax, hatchet,” thwaxš- “be busy;” O.Pers. taxš- “be active;” Gk. tekton “carpenter,” tekhne “art;” O.C.S. tesla “ax, hatchet;” Lith. tasau “to carve;” O.Ir. tal “cooper’s ax;” O.H.G. dahs, Ger. Dachs “badger,” lit. “builder;” Hittite taksh- “to join, unite, build”). Meaning “structural character” is recorded from 1650s.
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Hmmm.
Having the correct technology to get results.
Results results results.
Must get results.
What results?
Well, I’ll continue my dissection later. Probably throughout the next week or so. LOL!
Maria as I was plowing through all that MEST in workhorse manner, I found reality, freedom from MEST, which none of you have attained no matter how well you all know and can quote the tech.. You all been doing that for years and will be doing it for years to come….just talk about it.. woks, don’t work, works , don’t w….
You all are looking for that silver bullet, that magic wand which will make the Bank of yours go puff…Well it does not exist, if it would be there some place I surly would find it sifting through all that crap while plowing workhorse manner. That manner gives results….. Abundantly…
Sooner or later all the folks have to get down and confront of they own making=Bank and have to let go the reasons, the excuses like: too many processes there are etc. Every being who has not continued have found an excuse why not…. there are many excuses out there as those as who have not continued millions.
Keeping scientology working? Funny… who is kidding who with that..
@Elizabeth: While I am quite willing to accept your reality that you are the only one on these blogs that has found freedom from MEST and that the rest of us are just lazy ne’er do wells looking for an excuse to not be free from MEST, I am not willing to accept this for myself without my own inspection and work on the matter. You may be right, I may be foolish but then again, I must be the one to make that decision. I go with what is right for me. And I do recognize what is right for me. And that is all I can ever do unless I am willing to accept you as a “guru” who knows all, so far beyond anything I know that I should immediately forgo any effort on my own part to do my own work as I see fit.
You presume when you tell me that what I am working on is incorrect, just an excuse, not work at all. You presume when you decide what result I should be having. But I tell you, this is one of my processes and it IS working for me. And to be sure all that “crap” may mean nothing at all. That’s okay with me. But it does not mean that it means nothing at all to me or isn’t something I have to confront and address along my way. This particular process has produced consistent “results” for me. Bottom line: I see what I see. How else shall I proceed? Shall I try to audit what you see? Shall I lay down my own sense of knowing, deny what I see? I think not.
You are asking the impossible. You are asking that I accept your reality on this as truth alone and use what you use from your viewpoint to get where you are. But you have forgotten that to do that I have to work through what I see and what is real to me and it is going to come up like a bad or good or illusory penny no matter what process I use to move in the direction of truth.
I appreciate your good intention, and I know with every breath I take that it is GOOD intention. But I am in the middle of this process and I will see it through until it as-ises or reveals truth that I can work with and apprehend myself.
Love you dearly!
I am simply see what i see… and that is all..
I Emphasise stress and I repeat over and over: my reality no matter what I say: it is mine only and I only RECOMMEND something and that if useful do use but if not don’t…. just dump that recommendation sand I STRESS that and I say over and over “”each person knows their own universe and no other person know that universe than self””..So Maria I hope you have a recall on this too.
Elizabeth — absolutely I do have that recall! And that is why I know down to the tips of my universe that you mean me and anyone reading here all the very best possible. I have no doubt of your intent and your integrity. Not at all. In numerous discussions with you it has become very real to me that I need not withhold the truth of what I see. Its okay for me to say my “tell” and its okay for me to be wrong along the way and right along the way, after all, it is what it is!
Elizabeth: To me, the magic bullet is, “See things as they are.” at all waking and sleeping hours. It is simple and it is very effective.
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Elizabeth, how do you make sure that you are grounded in reality?
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I go for as-isness… seeing things as they are. 🙂
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Maria…. you do what ever you need to do… and what ever you do will not change anything in my universe. and I have no desire to change yours….. none what so ever… and I have no desire to be anybodies GURU…. bad position that is….to be a guru… very aberrated in fact… teaching is: make it sure that ones ideas will remain in the MEST… teaching simply make sure that idea will remains solid by agreement… yak… forget that one..
No. I disagree with you on this. There was a time Elizabeth, when you came to this road called auditing. A time when cognition was something you had forgotten or become unaware of. A time when you were not as you are now. Someone was there to teach you about it. Someone had learned how to do auditing and you received the results of what he / she had learned to do. You did not just suddenly say one day eureka! I need to audit! and just “knew” what process to run. There were people along the way that put a machine there for you to learn what you needed to know. Even now, as you comment on this blog, you to are doing the same. I do not see what that auditor did and those people did as an attempt to make sure their ideas stayed in the MEST just as I do not see what you are doing as an attempt to make sure that your ideas remain in the MEST. Do you?
you are right on that… yes i did needed the books, the teaching to put me on the road.. yes and I had agreed to that teaching that it was good, and i wanted to fallow that because it was good in my reality…
yes, you are right on that but again about teacher, what they do is my view pint and still valid because that what teaching do…
but it will never be viewed here in that content… so what… but you just gained one extra something, usefull or not that do not matter. just a view point same as any other..
Of course, it could be said and truthfully so, that one did say one day: eureka! I need auditing! And what do you know, there was that reality, just in time! But it is true also that one has to see it to see it at all. And to see the trap one had to create it and be trapped….
Really, how much fun is that?
Its truly hilarious isn’t it!?!
it was fun to create but to un-do holds totally different reality because of the understanding the gained knowledge, the reasons what and why we have done it.. that makes the un-doing the great adventure.. there is none better in the universe and this is not only my reality this time…
Maria, by the way what I have said about the guru… it is an original though, never been heard before utilised by humans.. So what auditing can achieve? To get away from the average normal regular typical standard, the well-worn path if I recall the teaching of scientology that was it aim… Yet when such new realities received 95% is rejected…. [if not more]
By now I recognise rejection dismissal when I hear one..
Perhaps it is not rejection and dismissal. Rejection and dismissal require that something be comprehended and then pushed away or negated. Perhaps it is blank, non-comprehension that just looks like judgment because the other cannot bear to be seen to be ignorant.
great view point… really good.. that really summons up how people react …?…. after reading some of my posts… one said ” I read a few and after that i did not bother any more because I did not understand most of it since it was so much gibberis.. so now I just ignor your postings
.” …….thank you..
I can see that to happen and understand too why……
This title is really more apt than I thought at first glance:
“Keeping Scientology Working,” A Critical Look At Scientology’s Most Sacred Scripture
I just thought of something that has had me laughing.
The policy letter is entitled, “Keeping SCIENTOLOGY Working,” not “Keeping the Thetan Working” or “Keeping the PC Working.” And sure enough it is about Keeping SCIENTOLOGY Working. The hell with what individuals think or are about or conceive any of that bank nonsense – just keep SCIENTOLOGY working and we’ll win.
And by God isn’t that exactly what we’ve got going on. SCIENTOLOGY is working. And working and working and working. It is at work. And if it doesn’t work then the individual isn’t working on keeping Scientology working. So we must fix the individual so that Scientology will keep on working. And if the individual doesn’t do that why then, off with him, he’s a barrier and he must be gotten off road or he’s in the road and in the way. There.
you got that right sister! scientology dont has much to do with the attainment of spiritual path, i believe that BIT was the shine on the hook…. one cut the glimpse of that and bingo went into the trap….. after that most are still wading through that muck looking for that something which leed to that path….but it is there….
“the shine on the hook” I love it!
Brilliant! I love it.
When speaking of technology the first thing that comes to my mind is auditing technology. Here are definitions of AUDITING from Tech Dictionary:
AUDITING, 1. the application of Scn processes and procedures to someone by a trained auditor. (BTB 30 Sept 71 IV) 2 . the action of asking a preclear a question (which he can understand and answer), getting an answer to that question and acknowledging him for that answer. Auditing gets rid of unwanted barriers that inhibit, stop or blunt a person’s natural abilities as well as gradiently increasing the abilities a person has so that he becomes more able and his survival, happiness and intelligence increase enormously. (BTB 30 Sept 71 IV) 3 . Scn processing is called auditing by which the auditor (practitioner) listens, computes, and commands. (FOT, p. 88) 4. to get a result on a pc. (SH Spec 71, 6607C26) 5 . an activity of an auditor taking over the control of and shepherding the attention of a pc so as to bring about a higher level of confront ability. (SH Spec 48, 6108C31) 6 . directing the pc’s attention on his own case and directing his ability to talk to the auditor. (SH Spec 49, 6109C05) 7 . the reversing of other-determined flows by gradient scales, putting the pc at cause again. (HCOB 7 May 59) 8 . a communicating process or a communication process with the end goal of raising the ability of another person so that he can handle his bank, body, others, and environment in general. (5707C17) 9 . the process of bringing a balance between freedom and barriers. Auditing is a game of exteriorization versus havingness. (Abil 25)
Let’s ignore the definitions from BTBs and focus on LRH definitions.
Def 3. Scn processing is called auditing by which the auditor (practitioner) listens, computes, and commands.
Here the auditor is computing per the theories worked out in Scientology by Hubbard. He is then either commanding the pc to do something, or directing his attention to look at an area of his case. Thus, in auditing, the auditor takes over pc’s determinism. The assumption is that pc’s attention needs to be controlled and directed, as he is incapable of doing so by himself.
Def 4. to get a result on a pc.
I think this definition applies in terms of authorized Scientology processes only.
Def 5. an activity of an auditor taking over the control of and shepherding the attention of a pc so as to bring about a higher level of confront ability.
Of course that goal to bring about a higher level of confront ability is there. A whole lot of auditing technology is involved here. It is quite complex.
Def 6. directing the pc’s attention on his own case and directing his ability to talk to the auditor.
I believe that gains come from the pc looking at his case without any filters for what it is. Talking to the auditor is secondary.
Def 7. the reversing of other-determined flows by gradient scales, putting the pc at cause again.
That’s a goal. It doesn’t describe the technology of auditing.
Def 8. a communicating process or a communication process with the end goal of raising the ability of another person so that he can handle his bank, body, others, and environment in general.
So, the communication process is the heart of Scientology technology.
Def 9. the process of bringing a balance between freedom and barriers. Auditing is a game of exteriorization versus havingness.
Again this definition does not describe the auditing technology.
What I get from the above is that auditing is a form of communication in which the auditor controls the attention of the pc per Scientology processes to get the pc to look at his case for what it is. IT IS LOOKING AT THE RIGHT PLACES IN THE RIGHT SEQUENCE THAT IS IMPORTANT.
Psychoanalysis attempts to do that too. The areas to look at are as follows:
(1) Is auditing better than psychoanalysis in getting the pc to look at the right places in the right sequence?
(2) What are the factors that makes auditing better (or worse)?
(3) Is the basic auditing technology optimum or can it be improved drastically?
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I don`t know the answers to these questions Vinaire.
I do know from my recent studies that most psychoanalytic procedures attempt to zero in on what could be called blockages or fixations, in an effort to dislodge, nullify, remove or disconnect them, based on the idea that this will alleviate symptoms. Blockages and fixations (which are seen to be neurological or biological responses to current or past stressors or traumas) produce pathological symptoms, so the decision of what treatment to use is based on the symptoms that are presenting. They believe that a proper diagnosis is critical to selecting the correct treatment, drug or medicine that will target the symptoms and perhaps even eradicate the source of the symptoms. Their effort is to normalize the individual by reducing or eradicating the pathological symptoms. It seems that the underlying idea is shifting attention or focus (bio-mind) in a way that reduces or eradicates the triggering mechanism for the symptoms.
This also appears to be the core concept of auditing, except that auditing focuses on the individual overall sense of wellness as the metric. In other words, by removing blockages that suppress tone, one releases life-energy. The more life-energy unblocked, the more blockages can be removed. The assumption is that if one restores overall wellness through whatever process is used, this will facilitate the innate healing capability of the bio-mind and spirit or the source of life energy of the individual. Consider the final line of the creed of Scientology — and we of the Church believe that the spirit alone may save or heal the body.
As far as sequence being critical, I guess the e-meter is the tool of choice for detecting what is coming up on the stack that can be easily addressed, although looking over pre-1965 processes and Creation of Human Ability processes, many of these did not use an e-meter and there seemed not to be a particular sequence thought to be very very important until the grade chart was constructed.
I found this article to be particularly enlightening as regards selecting the correct technology:
http://workabletechnology.com/?p=454
I found this comment in that article fascinating: But here again, we have the late 1960s concept that all case was R6 bank or OT 3 coming in and messing up the works. The whole idea was to destimulate the case rather than handle it with the handling being to go and do the clearing course. And auditing involves restimulating things so that one can blow them. Therefore any auditing was undesirable except for the tiny amount necessary (quicky grades) as a setup for Clearing Course. And so all self auditing became forbidden.
Yes, that is the general direction in which I have been headed. You might like to watch at least the first 5 minutes of this video, for it seems fruitful to me in terms of this class of information:
Maria, it is great to be communication with you again. Let me just list the thoughts that come to my mind after reading your post:
(1) The greatest common factor between psychoanalysis and auditing is LOOKING.
(2) Both direct a person’s attention at certain areas of his case in an attempt to bring relief.
(3) How these areas of the case are determined is called diagnosis in Psychology and C/Sing in Scientology.
(4) Psychology approach uses medication to address acute symptoms. Scientology is against psych drugs and it does not address acute symptoms except for recommending a calm environment.
(5) Both Psychology and Scientology aim at handling unwanted conditions, Scientology also aims to “restore” supernatural abilities that are supposed to be inherent in man.
(6) Scientology started with Dianetics and the discovery of engrams, which approach, in early fifties, fizzled out within a year or two.
(7) I find engrams to be very few like low hanging fruits. They are right there and need not be dug up. They are discovered very soon if one lets the mind un-stack itself naturally. The early popularity of Dianetics was based on this fact.
(8) Once these low hanging fruits were plucked and the appetite was whetted, disappointment set in as no more engrams were found while unwanted conditions remained. This led to more and more digging into the mind (memories).
[More later…]
(9) On point 8, digging into the mind to look for more engrams was the wrong way to go. Hubbard’s premise that engram is a single source of all aberrations, sounds nice, but unfortunately, that does not add up. Mental structure is more complex than that simple theory.
(10) What worked best in early Dianetics and in later TR0 was to let the mind un-stack itself naturally. This was never recognized fully by Hubbard. His effort remained always through repetitive Scientology processes to dig into the mind. But all these processes simply got different types of low hanging fruits.
(11) Not letting the mind un-stack naturally is the error made in psychoanalysis too. But it is right in observing that external help is often needed to address the acute symptoms. Research into medicine is, therefore, important. The challenge is to eliminate detrimental side effects.
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(12) Various Scientology processes are quite interesting. They can be used with the approach of un-stacking the mind naturally with simple looking, without any effort to dig into the mind as with repetitive processing.
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(13) The E-meter also functions as an “aid” in digging into the mind. E-meter become unnecessary as one trusts the mind to un-stack itself naturally through mindfulness.
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In my opinion the following are the two most important points:
(14) The primary liability of digging into the mind is that one easily slips into speculation and dub-in without even knowing it. It is safest to simply look at what is right there in front of the mind’s eye for what it is.
(15) The idea that one must end a process with a “floating needle” has been the most destructive one, because a single process may not adequately cover all of what is sitting there to be as-ised.
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(16) Another point that I find to be very important is that one must always be rooted in reality to spot dub-in. For example, in Buddhist version of TR0, one is always mindful of breathing. This keeps one rooted in reality.
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(17) It would be very difficult to get a “floating needle” on a process that is not addressing what is stacked uppermost in a pc’s mind. A wrong C/S can be quite dangerous when F/N is pushed on a particular process.
(18) What needs to be addressed in a person’s case is always what is sitting right there in front of the mind’s eye. This applies to each one of us right at this moment.
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Nice to talk to you too Vinaire!
These days I prefer to review my thoughts on all of this outside of the context of Scientology, without reference to it or for that matter any particular system.
As regards the human (and perhaps all life) bio-mind, it appears to be entirely haptic. I would like it very much if you would review the information at this link:
http://www.roblesdelatorre.com/gabriel/haptics.htm
In the haptics information described at the link I provided, it appears to be resistance or lack of resistance that provides the haptic feedback.
Consider vision, for example: What we have is incoming particles colliding with visual receptors, which are then translated into mind or image-scapes. Yet there is no actual image in the raw input — just energy patterns. The same appears to be true of any so-called perception available to the bio-mind. The bio-mind is restricted in its apprehension of incoming energies, for example, it will not render a cohesive or understandable mind-scape of incoming gamma rays even when these exist and are clearly passing through the bio-mind. The bio-mind has superimposed images or maps on these energy patterns that produce recognition of repeating patterns. These recognition patterns form a filter between the raw input and output. All of the recognition patterns are possibly no more than dubbed libraries which are triggered upon receipt of raw energy. Note: this is a sloppy description but see what you think.
This is in keeping with the information in this video — see the first video labeled Exclusive 2-Point Video: http://www.matrixenergetics.com/Videos.aspx
Well, Maria, what you are doing shall provide us with a different viewpoint from wich to look at the Scientology Technology. I am really enjoying the hub-bub created by the movie THE MASTER.
Let’s see what we have here:
HAPTIC = Of or relating to the sense of touch; tactile.
Looks like the sense of touch somehow relates to the spatial coodinates. Resistance, or lack of resistance, let’s the finger sense a certain path or contour in space. It is the impact at a certain level on sense channels that sends a signal to the mind. This signal is then interpreted by the mind. When there is no impact on the sense channels, as in the case of gamma rays, then no signal is generated.
Yes, there has to be certain type of programming in the brain that helps the brain interpret these signals coming in through sense channels. I am now waiting to see where you are going with this.
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I guess where I am going with this is that there may always be a dub-in, one way or another, possibly stemming from the shaping action of resistance or formatting. As an example, one works from the premise that there is a particular body. Notice that it is a PARTICular body. Yet the body is constructed from the same particles that the ground is constructed from and that the sky is constructed from and that everything in that field of perception is constructed from. Recognized responsive outlines or boundaries of resistance produce demarcation zones of interaction in an otherwise seamless field. As an example, 21st century life is bombarded with radio-frequency waves (for cell phones) that are keyed to the responsive formatting or frequency of the cell phone. The body holding the phone does not recognize or respond to them (unrecognized format or pattern of resistance and acceptance) – yet they are obviously present.
part (n.) c.1000, “part of speech,” from O.Fr. part, from L. partem (nom. pars, gen. partis) “part, piece, side, share,” related to L. portio “share, portion,” from PIE root *per- “to assign, allot” (cf. Gk. peprotai “it has been granted,” Skt. purtam “reward,” Hittite parshiya- “fraction, part”). It has replaced native deal in most senses. Theatrical sense (late 15c.) is from an actor’s “share” in a performance.
particle (n.) late 14c., “small part or division of a whole,” from L. particula “little bit or part,” dim. of pars (gen. partis); see part (n.). In construction, particle board (1957) is so called because it is made from chips and shavings of wood.
There is a term used in programming — parsing — defined as follows: To convert from one format to another. The term is often used as a substitute for the word “convert” when continuous strings of text are scanned to find embedded format codes that must be changed. In contrast, when data are moved between different databases, that is generally known as database “conversion,” because the locations of the fields in a database record are easily identified and generally do not have to be searched (scanned) to be found.
Consider all these terms: resist, assist, consist, desist, insist, persist, subsist
synthesist. They are all variations of sist – L. sistere “to cause to stand,” L. stet “let it stand,” third person singular present subjunctive of stare “to stand, stand upright, be stiff,” from PIE root *sta- “to stand, set down, make or be firm,” with derivatives meaning “place or thing that is standing” (cf. Skt. tisthati “stands;” Avestan histaiti “to stand;” Pers. -stan “country,” lit. “where one stands;” Gk. histemi “put, place, cause to stand; weigh,” stasis “a standing still,” statos “placed,” stater “a weight, coin,” stylos “pillar;” L. sistere “stand still, stop, make stand, place, produce in court,” status “manner, position, condition, attitude,” stare “to stand,” statio “station, post;” Lith. stojus “place myself,” statau “place;” O.C.S. staja “place myself,” stanu “position,” staru “old,” lit. “long-standing;” Goth. standan, O.E. standan “to stand,” stede “place,” steall “place where cattle are kept;” O.N. steði “anvil,” stallr “pedestal for idols, altar;” Ger. Stall “stable;” O.Ir. sessam “the act of standing”).
Perhaps the underlying act is cognizing (parsing) which could be said to be participation.
Good point! I think that any programming in the mind is the result of earlier dub-in, which has settled down and is taken for granted now. This can be at many levels like a fractal. So, the programming that is used to interpret the incoming signals on the sense channels, can itself the be result of earlier dub-ins.
So, you are right. There will always be dub-in. Actually I would like to know what is not dub-in at any level!
At atomic and molecular levels, this resistance is composed of the repulsion felt by ‘like charges’, namely electrons. Such resistance when felt for the first time may give rise to a dub-in (programming) of space coordinates. Later impressions (formed through similar resistance) of a bunch of spatial coordinates, when looked from the viewpoint of this programming, may give us an idea of the shape present. Such impressions when confirmed by signals coming on other senses may then form our reality.
What makes body’s particles different from the particles of ground and sky, is their configuration, such as that of macromolecules, which can hold programming within them. The particles of ground and sky may have a different capacity to hold programming or no capacity at all.
Different sense channels in our body respond to different incoming wavelengths. You may look at the cell phone as another kind of sense channel, which did not evolve in our body, but which we have developed scientifically.
I hope I am understanding you correctly.
Woops I posted my last post in the wrong spot. Should be here!
This video contains information that rings true to me as regards the possibilities of programming, and storage of information:
Maria, let’s discuss the points you are alluding to. Is there some inconsistency that you are noticing, such as, LRH stated this, but I am finding it is more to be like this. Let’s put this discussion in proper perspective.
Where is Chris? Where is Elizabeth? Where is Katageek? Are you guys being spectators or just not reading any of this?
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Hello Vinaire, I am here, What can I say?
I have never found you without words, Elizabeth.;)
How are you doing? When are you inviting me for … whatever!
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pussy cat, when ever you come here to the west you are welcome to drop in. we can have lunch.. tand talk about what ever our heart desire. I am well, but quiet.. I need stimulation mayby a question on the topic for me to get involved, or somebody to step on my toes really hard… I will yell than. Write my dear and we can talk.. How are you doing? how is your life -your family and your cat?
I am wondering if Scientology auditing has aphrodisiacal effects on the spirit? In other words does it get one into imagining wonderful daydreams of roaming around in the universe?
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There you go!!!! not answering my questions! hehehe… give that one up please and ack. I will write on you question how is my reality, but first you answer please.
Well, sweet Elizabeth, I shall certainly drop in when I come to the West, and take you out for a wonderful show and dinner. My first concern will be about your health that you are doing ok, and then just shoot some breeze. I like finding inconsistencies and then look at them more closely.
I am doing fine and very close to retiring from my current job. Then I shall like to work on a contract basis keeping my own hours. We are leaving in a week to South Africa for a short vacation. Both of my children are in New York seeking their fortunes. My wife is an RN and very caring. My cat always likes to sit in front of the monitor to get my full attention.
I hope I have answered all your questions fully.
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Thank you… dinner sounds good.. you an..
I know that I have blackmailed you for the answers… but what is a little blackmail between friends? Happy to hear you all doing well. I wonder how you will like the retired mode..Ugh.. I am fine by the way.. Healthy and soon the body’s age will hit the 73 mark, silver hair etc….
V: ‘’’ I am wondering if Scientology auditing has aphrodisiacal effects on the spirit? In other words does it get one into imagining wonderful daydreams of roaming around in the universe?”””
E…. Scientology and auditing itself has no aphrodisiacal affects what so ever.
Auditing erases the unwanted considerations… that is not necessarily means all the ‘’’’BAD”” considerations… but unwanted there is a huge difference in that two concept. When the unwanted is erased with that the barriers are fallen away so roaming around the universe is a normal activity and not a daydream =fantasy =imaginary=fictional in other words –make believe… But reality which is not comprehendible while one still has believes that those realities can be achieved and one can wonder about in the universe.
Here gets a bit complicated because only bodies can walk about… so what spiritual beings do?
What causes the ‘’aphrodisiacal’’ one feel good all the time, happy, easy going, no care, no worries, and no fear… not having fears of any kind changes ones view of the universe. When one erases the concepts of death or life any other thoughts which go with those concepts… than ones view has become un-real to others no one can imagine what it is like not having fears or knowing that death itself is nothing more than on illusion a concept without any real meaning and it is not a fact… do not happen.. cant happen..
I have a lot of things in mind that I would like to do with the time available after retirement. One would be to dekludge the whole house, throw things out that I don’t want. Discover the incomplete cycles and start wrapping them up. I shall continue to do math tutoring. Do more Scn / Idenics / KHTK sessions on line. Keep busy with my studies and continue writing on my blog.
My recent discovery has been that more dub-in happens during Scn processing than I previously thought. Most OT phenomena that people talk about seems to be dub in. I am currently looking at the nature of soul, what really happens between-lives, and what all these OT experiences really are. I am looking at them from the viewpoint of Scn Axioms. I have recently tried looking at the soul more closely and found that there is no identifiable soul.
SOULS, BETWEEN-LIVES, DARK ENERGY & MATTER
Let me know what you think.
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I went over your write up and here is my reality and I will comment on the above “dub” in reality of yours I might pluck out your hair so get ready!!!
SOULS, BETWEEN-LIVES, DARK ENERGY & MATTER
These concepts are mystical and seem to be over the top. They are part of the ancient to most modern beliefs. Here are some wild conjectures emerging as a result of discussions on this blog:
1..Soul is the set of mental energies and forces released after the physical death of the body. This was discussed in The Self and the Soul.
E, The soul holds the energy as on anchor point or is anchored in the Physical universe because is stuck to that energy mass….. more likely simply gotten stuck trapped… here is where auditing works—-to unglue the soul from those accumulated energy masses…
2 The body is made up of macromolecules that have a physical structure, as well as a programming embedded in the configuration of that structure.
E, my reality too.
(1) The physical structure may represent physical energies and forces, whereas, this programming may represent the mental energies and forces. This was discussed in WAVE FUNCTION COLLAPSE (Part 2), MINDFULNESS IN MENTAL OBJECTS (HINDRANCES), and PAPER ON HINDUISM.
E.. right
(4) This programming (mental energies and forces) allows the macromolecules to function as molecular computers and regulate the physical and mental functions of the body.
E.. I have to look at this closer.
(5) Thus, the “soul” (mental energies and forces remaining after death) comprises of all the programming patterns that were embedded in macromolecules before death.
E, only retains the energy masses.
(6) Thus, the “soul” seems to exist in some potential state after the physical aspects of the body have separated and disintegrated.
E. My reality too
(7) The “soul” is not material. It is no longer alive because, to be “alive,” it needs to be manifesting itself through a live body.
E, Right. only considerations-thoughts agreement existing while there is the believe one is the body and one lives because there is a body.
(8) The “soul” has no identity in this potential state. The patterns comprising the soul seem to “dissolve” into space after death, and “precipitate” back from space when a new body is being formed.
E…. there is no identity after dropping the body and there is no state of any kind… Being in state is identifying. Having something, being something therefore being part of the MEST Universe. The dissolving into space is the ONE-NESS
(9) The “soul” that precipitates back into a new body is consistent with the physical structure of that body.
E…right
(10) The soul that precipitates is not necessarily the a soul which dissolved in some earlier death. An entirely new soul may result from a recombination of programming patterns.
E…Totally off of the mark here. Same soul, but in different circumstances ones is acting out different realities…
(11) An identity exits only after the physical and mental aspects have combined. A new identity comes into being with the formation of a new body.
E… yes, that is the above thing.
(12) Apparently, there is no “life” in the “between-lives” area. There are only static patterns in space, or as a potential in space.
E….. No life exist by human reality but creativity-experience is still there but on the totally different level because here there is no ownership: mine, me, self, belongs to me , I have created it, therefore I own it, if you touch that I rip your gut out…hehehe
Co-existence would be a good term to describe this state.
(13) Thus, space seems to play a part in dissolving “souls” from dying bodies and precipitating them into new bodies.
E…I think you have mention this above…Space dissolves nothing, the soul after dropping the body ‘’’returns’’ where always is and view everything from whatever that is when not being imprisoned in the BODY.
Body is a prison where the soul is in total affect, at all times.. ‘’’’Having a BODY’’ is only a view point…. nothing more
(14) How these “souls” (programming patterns) come to be dissolved in space requires another wild conjecture. Space is not nothing. Space is something.
E… there is no mystery about the above
(15) The ripples in the “fabric of space” are the electromagnetic waves that go on to form matter.
E….Right
(16) The “fabric of space” itself may consist of such programming patterns that we call “soul.”
E…. I don’t think so… not even for a second… no…no… that is not so.
(17) Such patterns influence not just humans but also all plant, animal and marine life.
E….. Yes matter affect matter
(18) Certain aspect of these patterns may even be responsible for the Periodic Table of elements.
E …..I don’t get this one…
(19) These patterns probably are the blueprint of the universe that exist as space.
E…I don’t get this…
(20) The postulated dark energy and matter may simply be a measure of this space.
E…Could you give a bit more on this?
I admit this is as wild as it can be. Note that this conjecture is not entirely materialistic. We still don’t know how all this comes to be this way. That is a spiritual dimension
Elizabeth, I like to proceed systematically. So let’s take your points one at a time.
E, The soul holds the energy as on anchor point or is anchored in the Physical universe because is stuck to that energy mass….. more likely simply gotten stuck trapped… here is where auditing works—-to unglue the soul from those accumulated energy masses…
Your use of this term ‘soul’ is not quite clear to me. Looks like you are holding some identity in your mind for soul. I don’t see any such identity. I see ‘soul’ as follows from The Self and the Soul
A SOUL is a weighted average location of the mental energies and forces, remaining after the death of the physical body, much like the “center of mass.”
In physics, the center of mass is the weighted average location of all the mass in a body or group of bodies. Various important calculations in mechanics become simplified when quantities are referenced to the center of mass, or when the entire mass of a body is treated as if it is concentrated at the center of mass.
In my opinion, the soul itself is energy/force. How does one un-glue it from other energy?
I shall take up your other points when this one is fully sorted out.
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Soul is in the term of spiritual being no energy in connection to and a soul in my reality is intengible -infinite.. and not a being, since being is be something..
I will not call a infinite a awaress -unit, so tell me what label sgould we hang on a infinite?
V….A SOUL is a weighted average location of the mental energies and forces, remaining after the death of the physical body, much like the “center of mass.”
I know about that, but that is a weighted mass and not the soul… Mass has existance.. but than can you say that mass is the soul? so the sould departs from the human body and now occupies a different body.. Yes now still being stuck to that mass …. crap… what ever..
V….”How does one un-glue it from other energy?”” by now you know how auditing works… what auditing…..confronting can do… so why asking that question? i am not getting back to that since my reality has not changed and you have read it all too.
V… SELF is a indicator pointing toward something… and that is mass… Infinite is not “SELF”.. self is a human term indicating, toward a center? But that is not a spiritual infinite…
(1) If something is intangible and infinite than it cannot be identified because anything recognizable must be manifested and finite.
(2) One cannot talk about ‘a soul’ or ‘the soul’ because the moment you do that you are referring to soul as a finite energy unit.
(3) I agree that soul is not a being. It is a potential without any identity.
(4) My use of “center of mass” is just an analogy. All I am saying as that we imagine soul to be concentrated at a point, but it is not necessarily so.
(5) The fundamental of auditing is as-isness. It is seeing things as they are without any filters, assumptions, prejudices, etc.
(6) I agree with you that self is not the spiritual infinite. I use the term UNKNOWABLE for what you are calling ‘spiritual infinite’.
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Very good, now we are cooking… gas or electricity which one you prefer or outdoor cooking, roating over on open fire? 🙂
Great! Would you like to clarify your response here? You seem to be referring to ‘soul’ as some energy unit.
“E, The soul holds the energy as on anchor point or is anchored in the Physical universe because is stuck to that energy mass….. more likely simply gotten stuck trapped… here is where auditing works—-to unglue the soul from those accumulated energy masses…”
.If soul is simply something potential how can it get glued to energy masses?
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I never said the soul is an energy unit…. Nonono…let’s not go back there….
My experience, my reality here: since there are many different universe, many different realities.
V……”.If soul is simply something potential how can it get glued to energy masses? .
In my reality the soul “is’’ not something potential but it can create so that is potentiality.
I have written about this in my blog and in Geirs too.
So here I go: I am as a soul in nowhere, no place, no time, no body, no thoughts… no energy exist of any kind, therefore no shapes either, no flows, no colors… nothing… Then suddenly: a light appears in this nothingness… the first instant as it appears I observe this light… the second instant I occupy this light…. I become that experience since now I am that light I am stuck to that bloody thing till that light goes out or something else will happen a bigger thing which would pull my attention away from being that light.
Let say, now I have a position which is that light…. nothing else is happening than suddenly a remarkable flash going by… and now my attention falls away from my first anchor and that new phenomenon -energy appears and that pulls me-attention with it..
Now, I am stuck to that thing, my attention that is I can say I am a comet…
By now the soul believes he is a body and solid…
What is confusing to me is the use of the word “I” for the soul because the soul is not a being, and “I” denotes a being.
Reality to me is what one perceives to be out there. One may doubt it or one may be certain about it. This feeling would be something in addition to that reality. One may never truly know what is out there because there are no absolutes, but one may know what one considers to be out there. Therefore, one’s reality is made up of one’s considerations about what is out there.
So when a light appears in nothingness, it has to do with consideration. It is essentially the appearance of a consideration that there is light. Then there is another consideration that there is “I”…. Then there is another consideration that “I” is aware of the light… then the consideration of “I” occupying the light… then the consideration of “I” being stuck with light… and so on.
So, as I see, there is a series of considerations that appear out of no where. So from beginning to end it is a play of considerations. This is actually a Universe of Considerations. What is beyond this universe cannot be known except through consideration.
This iappears more consistent for me.
You and I are in total agreement… Even thr ”I” is a consideration, the universe is nothing but consideration… That is what i have been writting about and for most it is un-understable.
V….
A SOUL is a weighted average location of the mental energies and forces, remaining after the death of the physical body, much like the “center of mass.”
Explain this to me: the location is weighted,, how the hell they can weight what is not there? If something is there than that is mass-energy….
I bet you those scientist did everything to that left over energy; given it shocks, treated it with every kind of chemicals, talked to it, meanwhile it was wired up to the most sensitive machinery ever created on this planet.. communicated to it, even prayed to it… and I bet there was no respond… none what so ever… unless one of the scientists move that machinery with his very own willpower…hehehe old pussy cat, I don’t buy any old thing because scientist say it is so.
You can agree to it, believe it… whatever you like… but not for this kid here, scientist don’t stand very high tone scale with me since they experiment in solid with solid..
Elizabeth, you make me laugh. “Weighted avearage” is a mathematical phrase. It has nothing to do with physical weight or mass.
Check out my response above.
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Now you know where education is not in existance… which has been good so far I had less to undo. Please quote if for me because i cant find it..
Here you go: Weighted mean
Mean is another word for ‘average’.
NOTE: In the following example I am using the word ‘weight’ in the physical sense.
Have you ever tried to balance a spoon on a finger? That point is called ‘center of mass’, or ‘center of weight’ because it seems that all the weight of the spoon is concentrated at that one point.
In my article, I regard ‘soul’ not as UNKNOWABLE, but as mental energy and forces released after the physical death of a body. If one thinks of all these mental energy and forces to be concentrated at one point then it gives one the mistaken idea that soul has an identity.
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Now I got it… you have not answered my questions… what you you prefer gas-energy or outdoor cooking method.. Very important question because the answer will not make any difference to any one… I just like to keep things very uptone very scientific…. hehehe..
I prefer the company of a lovely person called Elizabeth.
Actually Vinaire, I am just answering your questions and offering you some info I have been reading about. I am so NOT interested in relating any of it to Scientology or evaluating the relative truth or not of Scientology. I am interested in extending my knowing and perceiving, and I am willing to look at just about anything, but not for the purpose of proving or disproving any particular system or approach to truth.
I initially posted on this thread because I still had a bit of attention on the concept of Keeping Scientology Working and how it affected my life and the evolution of the corporate Church. Having said that, I made these few posts on KSW and the whole thing unraveled for me, so now its a no-interest item!
Got it.
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It seems that spiritualism and materialism is not an either or proposal, Both aspects of philosophy can be present simultaneously with a line diving them. Materialism is the known aspect that can be grasped directly. Spiritualism is the unknown aspect that is being speculated upon. As these speculations yield concrete theories, those speculations are subtracted from spiritualism and concrete theories are added to materialism. Thus, with advancement of knowledge there seem to be a continual conversion going on from spiritualism to materialism. The line between materialism and spiritualism thus keeps on advancing per this conversion with advancement of knowledge.
Please, just dont write too complicated… by now you know I am down to the very simple form of communication.
All I am saying is that whatever we come to know in the area of spirituality with tangible certainty then it becomes part pf physical. It is no longer considered spiritual.
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right you are….
V, by the way I have known you have a wife…. and when I invite I dont invite a man-male but I invite a friend.. and in my invitation is not a fishing expedition for looking for mates.. Ugh… i been there, done, did it… I dont want any one to have a MU….
That is an interesting consideration you have come up with!
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V….’’’ ……”.If soul is simply something potential how can it get glued to energy masses? “””.
You right, IF SIMPLY POTENTIALITY IS THERE, THAN NOTHING HAPPENS!!
I read something into that sentence… a potential is not happening.. I could have saved the ink writing about nothing… call me on idiot.!
To me you are wonderful!
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Vinaire and Elizabeth — I am REALLY enjoying your discussion!!! I really hope you’ll keep on discussing! 🙂 🙂 🙂
Aw shucks! I thought we were alone…
Maria, Vin and I, were just getting into cuddly mode!!!
Maria, its up to Vinaire if we do.. long as he wants my company we can go for it. But he needs to ask the questions since I have nothing to say otherwise.
Vin did you just said to me that I am wonderful to you or you have said that to Maria.. I never know who is talking to whom if there is no name front of the comment..
We all are wonderful! 🙂
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Vin ””That is an interesting consideration you have come up with”‘
What is an intersesting consideration?
I just came back wathing a gaga land watched a fun movie..
Whatever you wrote in the post that I replied to.
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Elizabeth, could you please clarify for me once again what you mean here?
“E, The soul holds the energy as on anchor point or is anchored in the Physical universe because is stuck to that energy mass….. more likely simply gotten stuck trapped… here is where auditing works—-to unglue the soul from those accumulated energy masses…”
How can soul do anything if it is an infinite potential? Could you please rephrase what you really wanted to say above. Thanks.
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Vin…”’I prefer the company of a lovely person called Elizabeth””
you meant to say you cant cook?
Vin, my dear as you can see i am not used to be complimented.. I have this strange thing sitting in the midle of nothing when complimented and i dont know what to do with that.. roast it, freez it, lick it, drink it, blow on it put it under my pillow at night or hang it out on the line.. put it in the banks vault.. you see my dear this happens when one lives alone for a long time… Looooooooong time! One forgets manners… and of course one do not think of self as female…. or anything… the thought of sex only enters into ones mind when one writes about the subject… Oddly when a man–male looks at me i feel their attantion i look up and I wonder, looking back into a pair of eyes….now what?” and i look away… and i am told i am a beautiful woman, ”THE WOMAN”” consideration being one, now that truly gives me an invisible smile. Woman? Where is a woman?
It is all a consideration. Man is a consideration. Woman is a consideration. Sex also seems to be a consideration… but a sticky one. I have wondered about that.
In ancient India, old people simply went to the forest to live all alone just subsisting on nature until they died. That too care of any thought of sex. I am headed in that direction.
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V… i have looked at sex from every angle there is existing-considerations.. I have blown it all.
So i consider now because i live alone… this here condition would be: live in a cave and alone in the forest as i have done earlier life in China… But I know i am more advenced as I had been than.. I know-understand an different level if that makes sense to you…
Good night everybody. It is late here in Florida.
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Rest well…..
Alright, so what do I make out of the following:
““E, The soul holds the energy as on anchor point or is anchored in the Physical universe because is stuck to that energy mass….. more likely simply gotten stuck trapped… here is where auditing works—-to unglue the soul from those accumulated energy masses…””
There is “space-energy-mass and time.” There is looking. There is stable data. There is fixation. Auditing removes that fixation and provides a more basic stable data.
Auditing is, “Observing things as they really are, not just as they seem to be.” With that kind of observation any fixation or attachment simply dissolves.
This is my understanding.
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Good Morning… I just got up.. I go to bed late..usualy 2 am…So I need to collect the whatever causes to think…form concepts…since there is none to be had..as I have mentioned I dont have immediate memory.
Concepts are not sitting around here an shelfs collecting dust..
I also have to write on the word processor because spelling the words and making sentences out of them do not come easy.
I am a very good example what happens when all the automatic machinery to which self is connected is as-ised and I need to re-create everything in a new unit of time, as in NOW..
An the above we have a same reality..
V…(5) Thus, the “soul” (mental energies and forces remaining after death) comprises of all the programming patterns that were embedded in macromolecules before death.
E…only retains the energy masses.
Energy is “potential of mass.” Space is “potential of energy.” At death we seem to have dissolution of mass into energy, not as in a nuclear reaction, but as in burning. Furthermore, we have dissolution of mental energy and forces (the programminng in macromolecules) into space.
The soul dissolves into space and exists only as a potential.
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V..”The soul dissolves into space and exists only as a potential.”
I can have that..
V…(7) The “soul” is not material. It is no longer alive because, to be “alive,” it needs to be manifesting itself through a live body.
E…Right. only considerations-thoughts agreement existing while there is the believe one is the body and one lives because there is a body.
Whatever is there of the soul, it exists in a potential state as “space.” And what is this “soul” or programming made up of? It is made up of considerations.
So, these considerations exist only in a potential form after death. They do not get reactivated until they are incorporated into a new body.
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Right you are.. or right we are…same understanding..
V…(8) The “soul” has no identity in this potential state. The patterns comprising the soul seem to “dissolve” into space after death, and “precipitate” back from space when a new body is being formed.
E…there is no identity after dropping the body and there is no state of any kind… Being in state is identifying. Having something, being something therefore being part of the MEST Universe. The dissolving into space is the ONE-NESS
The potential actually exists in a different form. For example,
Potential of mass = energy;
Potential of energy = space.
Space is not nothing.
The identity becomes increasingly diffused from mass to energy to space. Space is the most diffused form of identity.
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Right, space is energy, no, space it not nothing I never seen it like that, that concept comes from LRH and he was wrong about that.
and i like the concept ””Space is the most diffused form of concept”‘ I really like that since i never seen it that way. But as-ising is not the same, as-sing desolves energy, not tranfroms.
V…(10) The soul that precipitates is not necessarily the a soul which dissolved in some earlier death. An entirely new soul may result from a recombination of programming patterns.
E…Totally off of the mark here. Same soul, but in different circumstances ones is acting out different realities…
I won’t be so hasty in jumping to conclusions. How can one say it is the same soul before ‘dissolving’ and after ‘precipitation’ when any identity was all diffused in between as space?
What dissolves is finite. What precipitates is also finite. But the two are not necessarily the same.
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About the above I look into it… but first cup of coconut milk… than coffee.
V…(12) Apparently, there is no “life” in the “between-lives” area. There are only static patterns in space, or as a potential in space.
E…No life exist by human reality but creativity-experience is still there but on the totally different level because here there is no ownership: mine, me, self, belongs to me , I have created it, therefore I own it, if you touch that I rip your gut out…hehehe. Co-existence would be a good term to describe this state.
You seem to be saying the same thing that I am saying. Life reduces to potential. As potential any previous identies also disappear into an overall diffused sort of identity.
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V…(13) Thus, space seems to play a part in dissolving “souls” from dying bodies and precipitating them into new bodies.
E…I think you have mention this above…Space dissolves nothing, the soul after dropping the body ‘’’returns’’ where always is and view everything from whatever that is when not being imprisoned in the BODY. Body is a prison where the soul is in total affect, at all times.. ‘’’’Having a BODY’’ is only a view point…. nothing more
Space is simply a potential form of energy. Soul exists as mental energy in the body. After the death of the body, The soul reduces to a potential form (space). Other souls have also reduced to space. The identity of souls, which existed in their energy form is completely diffused when the souls are reduced to space.
The idea of body being a prison is just a consideration. Is water a prison for oxygen and hydrogen? One may consider so.
When a new body is formed, its macromolecular programming is retrieved from space. The new body is retrieved from space via the rippling of space as electromagnetic wave and further condensation of that electromagnetic wave into electrons, and so on. The soul is already part of that space that is rippling as an electromagnetic wave.
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V…..”The soul is already part of that space that is rippling as an electromagnetic wave.”’
You mean this: the soul is part of that rippling because the soul is stuck to the electromagnetic wave? If so that is an explanation of what Bank is explained in a different manner, wording… great view point…. real to me.. But the soul is imprisoned by that and only in session one can confront as-is those waves and be free of it once and for all.
My thought is that soul, in its potential form, exists as some property of space. When electromagnetic energy appears as gross ripples in that space, this inherent property is there in those ripples. This property then continues to be there in the condensed form of those ripples as photons, electrons, macromolecules, etc. So, in my view, this mental programming seems to be built into the matter itself.
It is not just the case that spirituality is imprisoned in matter. To me both spiritual and physical are different aspects of the same overall system. Spirituality cannot operate alone by itself. It is the enmeshing of THETA and MEST, which brings about any operation or activity.
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Vin my dear that is wonderful.. if i could express myself useing those concepts I would.
But I do see yours and love it… Long as soul is within the bounderies of Ph. U. that what its happening.
Now, when one as-is all that energy=space than one is free of the Energy Universe and can move back- away finally and enter into different universes where energy do not exist.
Love this stuff….!!!!
Vin…. every consideration is a form of prison…. they are so many that it has taken me since 73 to get rid most of them..
I am not a scientist as you know, but i like some of the concepts you use.. they fit well, and better than LRH’s.. make more sense now.
I am glad all these conjectures are making sense to you. I am simply going by KHTK principle of looking at inconsistencies more closely as they rise up and grab my attention.
This principle seems to be paying off well. It is like auditing on all dynamics.
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They not only make sense but they are my reality… Vin.. in my work i dont have gray . just yes or know…
I have noted, since we met 16 moths back your reality has changed greatly.. huge difference in your energy flows than and now.. what ever you were stuck in than you have moved out of it.. I know this is evaluation… but communication exchange cant be without such. I am working now on the SPACE BIT…
Agreed Elizabeth. Vinaire has been a dynamo for quite a while now. He is writing both quality and speed. Whatever it is, he is winning and the space around him is alive.
Chris once and for all, I would like to point out after you have mentioned over and over how little education I have here in this life time.
Its only show you when you compared the WELL EDUCATED SCIENTOLOGISTs those who have all sort of ABC letters abbreviation combined after their name beside” BS” that education is useless, not needed in order to get one out of this MEST Universe!
I have held job as an award winning Hungarian baker, glass worker, dish washer while being a refugee, waitress, housewife, house keeper, master gardener, I have knowledge about many form of art, plus great accomplished cook. Fashion model, great lover, best friend to many but all that worth nothing zero nil zip nada, zilch zippo nix, none of it could have taken me out of MEST But only LRH’s TECH and my will power.
Look at our friend Vinaire if he has one Hell of on education yet if he would not done his researches on his own do you think he could have achieved what he has, think like how he do, see what he sees? I don’t think so..
So let’s discard the outside education once and for all… as useless component which will not help with the as-is-sing of MEST..
Elizabeth, my education comments parrot your own. I didn’t make that up. If you don’t want education to be considered when evaluating your work, why do you continually bring it up?
My point was and is your point. That a person looks for themself. The only absolute truth that anyone will ever find is their own.
oddly i know that…. buti wanted to write about it clearly… that sort of putting the dot on the i… I cant recall if i have expressed my view point on it before… after you have had. It was siply a good feeling to write where are the so called educated folks and I wanted to acknowledge Vinaire… since he is educated but he never snubbed me for not having education.. He alway accepted my comments at their face value as they were…..
Elizabeth, actually that is me who takes your comments at face value and grants you beingness all the time.
you have done that from day one in silvias blog.. from you that is a natural act..
Chris.. a body part is a body part is only part of a body no more no less..
V…The “fabric of space” itself may consist of such programming patterns that we call “soul.”
E…I don’t think so… not even for a second… no…no… that is not so.
I have no idea of what you are thinking of here. Go ahead and spit it out. We need to sort all this out first before resuming any flirting.
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V…”The “fabric of space” itself may consist of such programming patterns that we call “soul.”
You say:may consist of such of programming… “the MAY” bit is only that…. Where did you get that idea? Let me know?
I need to confront this consideration… and by now you know I never have studied, read any of the material I write about, what I write is from experienced-knowledge.
I am not totally sure about the properties of space. But Energy seems to manifests itself as ripples in space. This brings up the idea that when there are no ripples in space, then per the Law of Conservation, energy has assumed some other form. The only other form there is space. Thus, space somehow has the capability of absorbing and emitting energy. One wonders if space is a potential form of energy. In other words, space may convert into energy, and energy may convert into space. I am using the word ‘may’ because it is simply a conjecture at the moment,
The soul represents mental energies and forces after death. These energies and forces exist as programming in a live body but only as potential between lives. So, if the above conjecture is true, then what we understand as soul may simply appear as part of space. This may be experienced as some kind of influence on a live body as it moves through certain ’empty’ spaces.
Have you experienced any such thing?
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E…”Could you ask this a bit differently… I just dont understand the meaning.. how you mean the above… please.”
V…I was just wondering if the potential mental energy, which is part of space, could become active and directly influence bodies, as they passed through that space. For example, the feeling that one gets in some “haunted:” spaces… is that the result of body interacting with that space?
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potential… if something is potential than it is not in existance…
If something is ”thought of”’ than it is in fact existing…
All the posts above have come from comment-110.
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In my reality there is no space as space… it is paricles of somekind moving about They form different patterns. They flow, swirl, combine into tight formation which would look to the ‘’eyes’’ as solid objects like the Earth is believed is… but in fact not..
So this minuscule bits things, it’s hard to explain because I can ‘’see’’ how they move about and how they form into suns, planets, comets, even Black Holes.[ the value of the Black Hole is in the ‘’ring’’] The Space when it looks empty has less of these tiny things and Vin.. they have beautiful sound to them as they move..
If one would be listening with ‘’ears’’ to the space than the sound would be unbearable to experience.. so loud… But without ears one experiences this lovely tingling sensation…the experience is simply being the ‘’SPACE”” . so one knows from experience what is space … than one can experience other condensed particles easily… like suns… center of the Earth, diamond chunk. Being a piece of bread, bark on the tree… anything at all.
Beautiful!
I am better than good… Is there another person any of you know who can travel in the universe and describe the function of the Black Hole or other creations what are their functions. Ot hear the sound of the universe and tell you what it is like? Or tell you how the suns energy function and what holds that bloody thing up there? I have written of dozens of incradible things and who pays attention????? hehehe… fun…. much fun… i am having being invisible in every way!
and Vinaire and I we are in harmony… we love each other.. we alway have… we just had some different realities.. that is all..
Hell Chris, just because I say I cut out somebodies guts out that do not mean I hate them… Cutting up a body is just that… cutting up a body… but why should i hate that person? no reason what so ever… i am going for a walk… i like to walk in the so called DARK…
How come nobody else is participating in this discussion. We are certainly not alone here.
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V….”’The soul represents mental energies and forces after death. These energies and forces exist as programming in a live body but only as potential between lives. So, if the above conjecture is true, then what we understand as soul may simply appear as part of space. This may be experienced as some kind of influence on a live body as it moves through certain ‘empty’ spaces.
Have you experienced any such thing?””
Could you ask this a bit differently… I just dont understand the meaning.. how you mean the above… please
I was just wondering if the potential mental energy consisting in space could become active and influence the bodies passed through that space.
I never experienced such because being in space I do experience that space that moment in NOW.. But I have reality how come scientists Discover things… become aware how things are in space…. You see, they don’t realize that when they put their attention on something now in fact they recall their own experience and that experience is in fact in the new unit of time; happening now
Now they put first some kind of machinery at work and that machine in fact do F-all but the good scientist say the machinery done the discovery and now because that happened =the experiment proves it that it is so..
No… no… They know but they really believe the machine doing whatever… you see the scientist believe is solid proof.. that is a must on planet Earth.
I don’t know how I explained this makes any sense, but I know what happens and that is real..
If this is not what you need ask please…
Vin… what part of space… here on Earth or out there? Here yes…. big time… my god.. horribly..
Hi Vinaire, I have been a little preoccupied with gravity and lately have been watching my experience of it as it acts on my body. . . Is this in the line of country of your question?
Chris because of gravity the male pecker is pointing down when in limp mode!!!!
So do not worry old bean… all is well…. hehehe hehehe ..
Still reading my thoughts, I see.
No big thing… hangnail… thing not working as they should… you have had a loss not to long back… heavy one… so gravity is more noticable have bigger pull….
What happened? I seem to be missing something here.
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I don’t know.
That is what I have said about education… second hand information… but in fact that information could come down on the pike and been twisted into who know what by now.
Vin, I totally agree on your view points about education.
I don’t use the word ‘discipline;, but I say willpower, drive, tenacity of a bulldog never to give in give up to anything, since I don’t believe having goals anymore because reaching goals is setting limitations…. And I don’t believe in limitation, or existence of ‘’impassible’’. If something I cant achieve than I look for that barrier which not allowing me to achieve.. Then I move on.
But I am going into the garden ,, there is work to be done and it is a lovely sunny fall day, the air is clear, strong breeze is blowing from the north that’s means colder weather.. talk with you later.
I have a better understanding of gravity now.
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Let me continue with this thread in the proper place above.
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V….”I was just wondering if the potential mental energy consisting in space could become active and influence the bodies passed through that space.”’
Sorry dear, no idea.. no reality what so ever….
No, you are definitely not alone! I haven`t said anything because I am thrilled with the caliber of the ongoing discussion, really enjoying the unfolding of it and the experiences and ideas being expressed. Please keep going!
Thanks Maria. But where is Chris Thompson, the host? This is his blog.
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Sorry Vinaire, I’ve been trying to follow by smart phone and each thing you have been writing has been interesting but I have been trying to digest it and have not had a contribution worth mentioning as some of this has been new ground for me.
That’s OK Chris. I really appreciate your interest in what i write.
I have finally decided to put Scientology overtly on my blog.
A LOOK AT SCIENTOLOGY
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I’m sorry I have been busy but just came in for the evening… sent out a few messages during the day by phone — very cumbersome.
I want to really thank and congratulate Vinaire and Elizabeth for the candid and civilized exploration of the language that separates these discussions. I have really been reading (by phone) with interest and learned a lot from your discussion.
Something that I have asserted for a couple years now is that Elizabeth, without benefit of formal education yet has pierced to what seem to me core principles of MEST. Also her writing has started out clear to me and become clearer. Thank you Elizabeth.
And Vinaire! My blogging buddy… Your reports on “looking” have convinced me that combining your formal education, experience in academia, Scientology, and Looking have yielded impressive results. I really appreciate your patience to write out so many fine and unique observations about the quality of MEST.
I am so pleased with these and pleased with myself for following because sometimes you both have sort of left me trying to catch up.
I hope everything is OK, though there seem to be some hints telling me otherwise.
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Thank you for caring to ask Vinaire, but no-no, nothing is out of place in my life at all…All is well. This is just Elizabeth doing her palm- and mind-reading again. If Elizabeth could truly see my thoughts and assume my viewpoint, she wouldn’t be continually trying to stick it up my a – – .
I dont go to dirty places….
Elizabeth, could you please help me visualize those ‘dirty places’, so I can decide for myself.
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Talking about education (ref Comment-189) I have the following points to make:
(1) Education is second hand observation.
(2) One must closely examine one’s education before one can think with it.
(3) Scientology can be part of one’s education. One must closely examine Scientology before one can think with it.
(4) Formal education imparts certain discipline. That discipline is the most important part of formal education.
(5) That discipline could be described as THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD or MINDFULNESS.
(6) Doors to education are wide open today with access to Internet and WIKIPEDIA.
(7) The key to education is following down the trail of inconsistencies.
(8) Here is the procedure outlining the use of this key.
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Elizabeth stated the following in Comment-205:
“That is what I have said about education… second hand information… but in fact that information could come down on the pike and been twisted into who know what by now. Vin, I totally agree on your view points about education. I don’t use the word ‘discipline;, but I say willpower, drive, tenacity of a bulldog never to give in give up to anything, since I don’t believe having goals anymore because reaching goals is setting limitations…. And I don’t believe in limitation, or existence of ‘’impassible’’. If something I cant achieve than I look for that barrier which not allowing me to achieve.. Then I move on.
But I am going into the garden ,, there is work to be done and it is a lovely sunny fall day, the air is clear, strong breeze is blowing from the north that’s means colder weather.. talk with you later.”
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Education has value. It should not be discounted outright. One can learn a tremendous amount from WIKIPEDIA.
But one must relate it to first hand observation by removing all inconsistencies before it becomes useful.
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Yes, on Earth education has value beyonf the price of gold since the fruit of the education buys that gold. But V. my dear I have no need of wordly education any more…what you say to that? what is your reality?
My viewpoint is that education is like ‘life’. It has more uses than just buying gold.
Education enhances creativity. One does not have to keep reinventing the wheel.
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Right!!! fansatic view point!!
Through application and experience, education becomes first hand knowledge.
In my opinion, the fruits of education lie in the ability to spot and resolve inconsistencies.
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I think there are two valid points being brought up here toward education:
1. Only “looking” not “learning” levels inconsistencies.
2. One has to learn to look.
Ha ha! Nice summation.
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Chris I dont get the emails again.. i did not realized V has written.. I had to hunt for it but i am not sure if i got it all..
Chris two thing… I dont get the emails any more from Vin… when he comments. and about thoughts, reading thoughs, not interested any more… because what possibly new i could find? I
I will write on gravity later I have seen something REALLY FANTASTIC…. scientists eat you heart out! to bad for them they dont know of my existance..
I would be interested in knowing about your take on gravity, beside how it applies to male peckers in limp mode.
i just thought of anti-gravity as it may apply to male peckers, wow!
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I believe every position while copulating has been tried by now: Hanging upside down included I am sure and etc.
. I did not write those books or carved those statues into forever positions—solidity hardness which will last long as that block of stone ….well what can I say… three cheers for the statues… but what on endless agony that is my view point..
V…. can you picture standing on head would enhance that peckers condition in any way?
There would be even less blood flow than before and the un-comfortable position would also play a role since there is stress… hehehe. Of course this is my humble reality…
I believe that when one is under the thralldom of desire, standing on head is no problem. I am sure you have experienced that!
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V.. I hope that you believe, that I dont have recall on that.. it has been erassed.. gone…
As-isness goes both ways. If you can erase it, you may also re-create it. That way you may verify what I said.
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yes I can create-experience that is having-ness… but i cant recall which is no longer exist in my universe…. no amount what ever can bring that back…
But any recall is re-creation (as-is create).
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Yes V… But under those recalls there is energy sitting…… When there is no energy. no stimulation…Now my reality is very difficult to explain… Wish I could put it into words-concepts… What I can create now is very different … i dont know how to explaine this..Question might help/
What you call “energy sitting,” I call it attachment. Energy is sitting there because one is attached.
A person who has attained Nirvana can observe anything and everything with complete detachment.
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hehehe so that is nirvana I just say; I have blown the bank… as-ised the bank…. no more considerations left. No more stimulation…. whatever I view is …”is” nothing more nothing less… very simple…. no significances… no wondering what it could be, no confusion. It is.
What does “blowing the bank” really mean? Bank is “mental image picture collection.” So, these pictures are gone, but thoughts and considerations are still there.
I believe that one needs to get rid of all fixations. And the deepest fixation that there is in Scientology is on the subject of individuality (self).
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What I have seen about gravity how the human body is affected by it because the human body is made out of the same energy as the planet. So it is not affected at all since these energies are not being separated items… but the main steam energy itself.
I have seen the picture-the flowing energies how it moves….generated and how it returns back to the planet… it is fun to see such a phenomenon because it has been some times we had seen those thing , it has been a while when we were partaking in creations like that.
So no matter how one postulate in order to levitate the body away and float about the surface of the Earth, that will not happen.
What the being can do is have many sessions as possible about weight, how the body itself feels and by eliminating those heavy-solid considerations one can feel light, floating, disconnected detached separated from the planet as a soul but the body will remain and will be governed as part of the whole.
Now if somebody has achieve that phenomenon and that being is on this planet that too is possible of course but that person do not have the same consideration and don’t go by the same rules as an average human and his postulate could alter the Earths energy and he could float about even if his[anchor] body would weight much as1000 pd.
V… “”””What does “blowing the bank” really mean? Bank is “mental image picture collection.” So, these pictures are gone, but thoughts and considerations are still there.
I believe that one needs to get rid of all fixations. And the deepest fixation that there is in Scientology is on the subject of individuality (self).”””
E, no longer having any mental image pictures-collection… none! Pictures are part of the thoughts-considerations… they can be as-ised too. Auditing can do that. And have done that.
I still understand what communication is about but as you say… I view it from wherever and not being in it.
If you would have my posts in my blog than you would have read that I have as-ised that ‘’self’’ concept sometimes back… I do not exist as on individual…
Soul- infinite do not have individuality therefore is not part of not separate from…
Elizabeth, You were getting the email notifications from Vin’s posts but now you don’t?
Now some i have… but not earlier…
I have recall when a tom cat went for my leg because he bit my leg!
You see he picked up the energy flow the light flow as cats have… now that incident was a mile stone in my advencemant because of the reaction of that male cat. That indicated to me that my space- energy was equal to a female cat… which is so much -much lighter than human energy flow..
Cats are very spiritual beings they have not adobted to humans, have not molded into human energy flows. And that incident was about 15 years back… I have advenced since then!!!
Good for you!
As I said above, as-isness goes both ways. That is why the goal in Buddhism and Hinduism is detachment, One may re-create a phenomenon and still be detached from it.
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good for the… Be in the NOW… that what I have achieved no past no future…. and i dont miss any considerations in those direction. You have no idea how difficult for me is to write….. since that action is: putting layers of different actions on top of each other in order to make solid.
Ha! Interesting considerations you have!
Nothing is difficult or impossible unless you consider it so..
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You hit me with my own motto… bad pupy you are. I have worked on this great amount but so far i have not found the answer, in other words cant blow what is keeping this condition in place…
Elizabeth, what condition are you referring to ?
Having memory….as I used to have before the machine -implant which allowes, keeps the records, holds what one reads-learns, stores them has blown..
No. I simply noticed the inconsistency in what you wrote.
Is there something you are trying to avoid using the concept of NOW (time)?
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avoid now as time? how could I avoid something which do not exist?
avoid is not willing to confront. not willing to have experience…. there is no such a thing in this universe which i am not willing to confront.. if there is something it is there because at the present moment i dont have attantion on that…
This point started with your statement here; comment-212
Your question was: “can you picture standing on head would enhance that peckers condition in any way?”
My response was: “I believe that when one is under the thralldom of desire, standing on head is no problem. I am sure you have experienced that!”
Now what you seem to be saying that you have no such recall. This goes against your claim that you have experienced everything in this universe. It also goes against the claim that a Clear has total recall.
So, are you avoiding to look at “when one is under the thralldom of desire, copulating while standing on one’s head is no problem”?
According to my understanding, when an energy-picture in memory is as-ised, it is stored in a different form. Please see MEMORY & RECALL
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This is a legitimate question.
V.. Of course I have knowledge that i have had sexual experiences had 4 husbands and few male frindends between those husbands but I dont have any pictures of those experiences, or emotions, sensations connected to that knowledge. So I can say yes I had creative experiences. I only have knowledge that I had those experiences… but nothing more.. have I answered your question?
I suppose my question related to the level of THEORY or PRINCIPLES in the following progression of memory. It is way past the level of experience.
Perception
Experience
Information
Hypothesis
Theory
Principles
Axioms
Self
This progression of memory storage is explained in MEMORY & RECALL
darling old bug…. give me time….. i need to do some things… as we would say it in hungarian”’my eyes are rattling in their wholes from hunger”” so i need to put fuel in the body and i need to go in town.. i be back…
No rush. When you have time check out my response here also:
http://vinaire.wordpress.com/current-discussions/#comment-4922
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V… you have wonderful knowledge rich and diverse but bloody hell, you have collected that through some experiences but mostly by studying materials and have those compared valuated to each other and picked one you liked the most fitted into your reality-belief. But that material was written by others that and your conclusion -reality is still your reality and it is not written in stone…
So your evaluation of my beliefs how you interpret what you read still remains your reality and that still not make it mine….
And You go by science what the scientists say by their reality since in your belief THEY KNOW 100% certain because of course there is agreement within that tight group and by the likes of you who study those who writings but have not experienced the those matter your-self’s.
You can believe that I am wrong and that is still your very own consideration and nothing more.
I really don’t agree and believe ‘’’universes’’ personal individual experiences should be compared equated paralleled to each other and because of that somebody should be standing front of some bloody chart and say: you fit here this is where you belong, that spot is yours, your studies elevated you here to this level…
Of course to do that one must judge evaluate by one owns standard-believe-reality and that reality contains that everybody is the same-everybody behave the same way, everybody respond to the same, everybody know the same, that we are not individuals, we do not know different, we don’t see and experience differently, we all create the same..
That kind judgement evaluation can be done on singular items and it is used on this planet generally when that material is being studied by the group and that is just fine.
But outside of that when one has stepped outside of the boundaries of the human believes behaviour… when that happens one should live and in my case I have that kind of judgement evaluation behind in the same bag where the MEST universe is, where you still sitting.
What I am saying V… you have not accepted my reality at all, you believe it is impossible because you don’t have that experience therefore that experience-reality do not exist.
With that you also say you know it all and there is no more to know.
That say a lot to me, now let me EVALUATE THAT CONDITION: stuck trapped locked in a fixed position of one’s own beliefs: THAT CONDITION IS SOLODITY.
I have no idea what you are responding to. It would be nice if you could relate your response to something I said.
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read into it… you have done that so far and so well. Do include -gravity, your comments you have posted in your blog… I dont mind evaluation of my reality… go for it…
but I will not have invaladitation when it comes to debate..
I don’t like debate. I like discussion where everybody wins.
I still have no idea what I said that you took as invalidation.
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Fine by me… no debate…
Why can’t you have what I SEE can exist in the universe and be real, and it can exist for others to see and have reality on it at the same time? Why would you call what I see is only IMMAGINATION and nothing more which exist only in my universe and no other place?
That is an assumption on your side and nothing more!!!!!!!!!!! Just because you can’t see that than can’t be can’t exist??
Is the following what you find inconsistent?
“The phenomenon you are describing is not very clear to me. The only way a body will levitate is through a balance of forces. See how the moon levitates above earth, or how the earth levitates above the sun. This is actuality.
“The other thing is imagination or visualization. Here the actual sun, earth, moon are not involved, but only a consideration of them. One is playing with such considerations, along with the considerations of gravity, levitation etc. One may juxtapose these considerations in any way one wants. The only barriers would be fixed considerations. These fixed considerations can be addressed by LOOKING as in sessions.”
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I did look in session and I have found different realities which you consider is imagination..
There are on the same subject immense amount of different realities. That holds true why the apple when let go falls toward the ground… and that FACT is only one reality… I have seen hundreds of different reasons beside that theory on gravity why the body can’t float above the ground here.
And let me tell you, every one of those things which I have seen and understood have applied to different places-surfaces on different Worlds.
But one carries those believes realities and they still have effects on the being here.
This is what auditing all about… to take those layers off
Would you care to hear some of those reasons? say only yes, if you really do believe that can be.. can ex be valid reasons on other planets.
I think this brings up an interesting question. How does one differentiate imagination from a reality derived from session?
I am not talking about Elizabeth here. I have found that there is no poka-yoke to prevent dub-in in Scientology auditing sessions. E-meter can react on dub-in just as it reacts to reality. There are many examples of people who have deliberately produced F/Ns at examiner by thinking of something other than the session.
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Yes, there are who can fake read on the meter.. my ex has done that and he was told by his auditor that he wont be allowed to continue..
V.. I have no reality what others do in sessions I only know what I have done and speek from those experiences.
Those who cheat they only cheat them selfs.
V…””I think this brings up an interesting question. How does one differentiate imagination from a reality derived from session?””””
E… one has to as-is immense amount of errors mistakes confusions, clear out the conflicting inconsistent unreliable considerations and agreements, have to get rid of counter postulates… one has to simply take one’s own universe apart little by little… those doubts, not trusting, have to take apart and question everything and anything… one has to dig up uncover all the hidden item, the forgotten, what has become invisible… not wanted.. no longer believed existing… what are lies, what has become unknown, thousand and thousand of avenues one need to walk down and explore…
That has taken me a lifetime… and by now I know what is real and if still a smidgen of uncertainty is there I look for that because by now lies won’t do…
That is correct.
And as I said before, in-session reality and out-of-session reality should be consistent as well.
the only reason one goes into session because one know one is wrong and one do not agree to live in that self created lie.
Realization changes ones view point for the better view point reality, but that new reality not necesearly the basic truth… there are thousands of layers on each reality…
We have collected those over the eons. But in one session one can blow -as-is huge amount of these different realities so one not need to confront every single one…one by one… But in my experience one needs to dig wide trench and very deep in order to locate that BASIC- first postulate..
What I mean by that is one needs to confont not just a single item Example ”Power” but every related considerations-words meanings which means power- energy-force plus how they effect one, or how one can do without.
Power control authority influence impact govern rule etc.…etc…having or not having missing given up, been destroyed, lost, never had it, stolen..etc… on and on it goes..
Energy vigour drives vitality strength etc….
V.. I have spent my life in sessions since 73…. I know how the universe the MEST operates…
I try not to direct my attention. I enjoy letting the processes of Mindfulness and More on mindfulness take over.
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V… will you please explain what should be same in and out of session.. I dont get your meaning on that..
I am talking about consistency and not sameness. I am raising these issues to be discussed as follows:
comment-278
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Absolutely right. Not about Elizabeth. I am willing for any of this to fall anyway at all. The most consistent thing I come up with is to give various considerations and experiences differing altitudes or layers.
Meditation is very personal and the experience is personal — not easy to show another one’s own experience. As we get more solid, the experience gets easier to share such as if we stand shoulder to shoulder and stare at the sky and ask if we both see the cloud with the particular shape . . . and yet our individual experience of that moment is not the same. Our temperature filters may have one of us enjoying the warm sun while the other sweats and watches for some shade to dive into.
V..”’Maybe there is difficulty in understanding what I wrote in in the essay MEMORY & RECALL.
What would you like me to explain?””
E…. thank you, i got it all but that do not mean it is the fact for me.. how it works in my universe.
What I read there that is singularly your reality how you see and experience things therefore come to conclusion and the belief is tops… no more!
But that is all yours and that conclusion do not explain how things are in my universe..
Would be wonderful if you could say… hey kid that is great.. I never seen that before, I did not realise those things exist, that can be! Or: what it is like not having memory ?how do you conduct your daily life not remembering? What affects that caused? [you have asked a different way.]
The universe is full of incredible creation… it is a enchanted place one can wonder about forever and still can’t see and experience it all, and that makes this Universe a Magical place!
I can only say that am witnessing an interesting reaction. I still don’t understand the source of this reaction. I have my reality and you have yours. That is how it should be. There may or may not be agreement. Agreement is not a must.
If there is an inconsistency, and you would like to look at it more closely. By all means do so. I shall help you as best as I can.
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V… please do understand I have not studied any other materials outside of the courses I had to have pertaining on the grades- OT levels and Nots.
I have not attended lectures or listened to tapes. I have not Studied any religious beliefs relating to spirituality. NOTHING!!!!
What I know how I talk and say come out of having sessions, cognitions….therefore reliving-experiencing those created incidents once more in new unit of time….
There is no one I quote!
If you care to continue please take this into consideration that I talk from experience and not learnen second hand stuff.
To me it is inconsistent to believe that a cognition gained from session is always true. May be there was a better realignment of data for the pc. It was a big thing for the pc from his/her perspective. But it does not mean that it is true in absolute sense..
The in session reality should also be compared with the reality outside the session. If that comparison reveals some inconsistency then that should be addressed as well. I bet there will be further gains to be had from that.
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It is very different to audit on the lower case level one the PC only can confront the very top layer of considerations.
That do not touch the real stuff. Even the OT level doing those is still just a very very very small part what is ahead to be confronted..
How could one who maybe being audited 500-1000 hours could see and confront the experiences of eons? That is impassible!
Interesting consideration!
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Elizabeth, are you saying that perception does not filter down to contributing the formation of self?
If anything I wrote is difficult to understand, please let me know and I shall try to express it more clearly.
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“”are you saying that perception does not filter down to contributing the formation of self?”” I have no reality on the above..I dont understand how you have put the question.
Maybe there is difficulty in understanding what I wrote in in the essay MEMORY & RECALL.
What would you like me to explain?
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Vinaire this is not the time to move into the silence mode…[ my assumption ] since I am hot and bothered….
The following is written in response to comment-234 and comment-235
Gravity is due to attraction between masses. Anything that is manifested has mass due to the fact of manifestation. Therefore, this planet has mass; human body has mass. Considerations have mass. Anything that you can think of will have mass. It will require space to keep these masses separated.
The phenomenon you are describing is not very clear to me. The only way a body will levitate is through a balance of forces. See how the moon levitates above earth, or how the earth levitates above the sun. This is actuality.
The other thing is imagination or visualization. Here the actual sun, earth, moon are not involved, but only a consideration of them. One is playing with such considerations, along with the considerations of gravity, levitation etc. One may juxtapose these considerations in any way one wants. The only barriers would be fixed considerations. These fixed considerations can be addressed by LOOKING as in sessions.
Auditing simply addresses the considerations in one’s mind. It is very far from addressing the actuality.
My original question in comment-233 was, “What does “blowing the bank” really mean? Bank is “mental image picture collection.” So, these pictures are gone, but thoughts and considerations are still there.”
My understanding is described in the essay MEMORY & RECALL.
“Blowing the bank” may as-is energy perceptions into experience, or as-is experience further down into information. We are now confronted with inconsistencies at these subsequent levels, and these inconsistencies need to be blown to get down to the next level until one reaches the level of self. Here we find the ultimate inconsistency or fixation.
As long as there are inconsistencies, the blank has not blown completely on all dynamics.
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The following is written in response to comment-234 and comment-235
Gravity is due to attraction between masses. Anything that is manifested has mass due to the fact of manifestation. Therefore, this planet has mass; human body has mass. Considerations have mass. Anything that you can think of will have mass. It will require space to keep these masses separated.
The phenomenon you are describing is not very clear to me. The only way a body will levitate is through a balance of forces. See how the moon levitates above earth, or how the earth levitates above the sun. This is actuality.
The other thing is imagination or visualization. Here the actual sun, earth, moon are not involved, but only a consideration of them. One is playing with such considerations, along with the considerations of gravity, levitation etc. One may juxtapose these considerations in any way one wants. The only barriers would be fixed considerations. These fixed considerations can be addressed by LOOKING as in sessions.
Auditing simply addresses the considerations in one’s mind. It is very far from addressing the actuality.
My original question in comment-233 was, “What does “blowing the bank” really mean? Bank is “mental image picture collection.” So, these pictures are gone, but thoughts and considerations are still there.”
My understanding is described in the essay MEMORY & RECALL.
“Blowing the bank” may as-is energy perceptions into experience, or as-is experience further down into information. We are now confronted with inconsistencies at these subsequent levels, and these inconsistencies need to be blown to get down to the next level until one reaches the level of self. Here we find the ultimate inconsistency or fixation.
As long as there are inconsistencies, the bank has not blown completely.
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I can’t seem to post any more.
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Though I have approved your logon to post carte blanche, yet WordPress still routes some posts to the “approval” queue. I am not sure why this is… not sure what triggers this…
One previous post showed up as “Waiting to be moderated”. It later got approved.
But the post I am talking about didn’t show up at all. Here is that post linked from my blog:
http://vinaire.wordpress.com/current-discussions/#comment-4922
This post refuses to show up on your blog. I wonder if it is the length of the post, or number of links in it.
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Check if that post went into your spam folder.
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Hi Vinaire, Yes I found two posts of yours in my wordpress spam file. Posted them now.
Thanks.
I have made some changes at comment-4922. The changes are in bold italics.
There are two issues here:
(1) What is the relationship of mental reality to physical reality?
(2) What is the meaning of “blowing the bank”?
I think that everything boils down to LOOKING and AS-ISNESS. As I said in comment-4936:
As-isness does not necessarily mean complete disappearance.
As-isness of matter seems to result in energy.
As-isness of energy seems to result in space.
As-isness of space seems to result in unknowable.
And,
As-isness of energy pictures seems to result in experience.
As-isness of experience seems to result in information.
As-isness of information seems to result in hypothesis.
As-isness of hypothesis seems to result in theory.
As-isness of theory seems to result in principles.
As-isness of principles seems to result in axioms.
As-isness of axioms seems to result in self.
As-isness of self seems to result in unknowable.
It all seems to boil down to the understanding of SPACE. Hubbard equated SELF (being) with SPACE. We find both SELF and SPACE to be last frontiers beyond which lies the UNKNOWABLE.
May be we can start a new thread on this. Chris?
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The post above is awaiting moderation. Probably, the WordPress Software cannot decide if it is spam or not. I am spamming your blog, Chris, ain’t I?
Some people would never have allowed me to go so far on their blog. Ha, ha!
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Not yet. I have the goal to have an open and uncensored blog; however, with no experience hosting a blog, I may have set my bar too high. I will have to see. Nothing that you’ve posted has come close to any standard that I may have that says I need to throttle-down your comments.
I think civility is the only channel that I want to try and stay inside.
You may consider implementing the following policy about discussions:
Discussions and what needs to be avoided
It is up to you.
I find it inconsistent in Scientology to profess the virtues of and to audit toward greater individuality, but to define individuation as a bad thing and the result of committing harmful acts toward the group.
Chris, not having read all your comments. I just have one question for ya. Have you listened to the Phoenix Lectures and the PDC tapes yet? They answer so many questions and I loved them the best. Just curious.
Hi de’! Thanks for dropping by. This is a good question. Yes, I own and have listened to these plus the SHSBC tapes as well. Also I am a certified Clear with fully expanded grades, method 1 w/c, PTS/SP course completion, OEC, and I feel stupid but cannot remember which staff statuses I completed in the SO, kind of like SSII, I think. I have a full library of OEC, Tech Vols, R&D Series, plus books both original and GAT. I have dipped into the GAT without any depth. I don’t really know what is going on there except for heresay.
About a year and a half ago, having done emeter drills decades ago, I picked up a fancy emeter and just started solo’ing. I got the clearbird materials from the net and used the solo drills and then ran self analysis lists (don’t shoot me) to see what would happen. Well, to my amazement the meter ran fine, my TRs seemed to be okay enough. The meter reaction to the questions was very fast and my confidence built quickly. At the behest of our friend Elizabeth I began running rudiments sessions on whatever was hanging right in front of my face and had quite a good experience with that. I did this for almost a year. I ended off this past Spring. I was winning.
Then another phenomena happened. Similar to being a student, I used to study in a state of mindfulness where I you might say studied with one eye on the material and one eye on my body reactions. Similar thing has happened in solo where my body signals on reads same as with meter. Consequently, even without a meter I can run my own rudiments solo. Yes, I have become quite the squirrel and know best but I am not asking anyone anymore what will be right for me. I am keeping my own counsel and taking my own advice where it concerns me. Of course, I welcome my friends advice but one overwhelming thing that I am sure of is that my own reality is real for me alone and so my quest must match that reality and not particularly anyone else’s.
Now I seem to be moving on from even that. This year I have read 5 physics books and am working on a seventh book on cellular automata, although I am buried as it is a very long book. Through a combination of auditing, KHTK looking, my own reality on mindfulness, and my study of the greatest minds that science has offered the world has broken down into bits and seems both simple and gloriously large and small all at the same time.
There have been the vestiges of leftover ARCx’s with my Scientology life but these seem to have resolved or become resolved through the rudiments and simple mindful looking as quickly as they pop up.
I’ve had more than a few inquiries from COS trollers including old friends still in COS but I’ve done these communications back channel. Something about your question made me want to put myself out there and make my personal self better known. It has been now quite a while since I felt like hiding my identity and at the rate I am going there may not be much identity left to be made known! Our minds are our own, you know?
I’ve been enjoying reading your posts over at Elizabeth’s and Geir’s and hope you will hang around.
Hey Chris, thanks so very much for sharing all that. Enjoyed reading it and feel like I know you much better now. the one thing I was hoping for and missed are the SHSBC. Sounds good that you are doing solo and that it has been helpful and enjoyable to you with the meter and without.
I keep busy more of the time on other blogs and reading and do enjoy reading Eliz and Geir’s too. Agree mind’s are our own and fortunate to find a few that we can communicate it too.
You have a nice site. Thanks again for sharing.
It was easy for me to get on your site as is not always the case I find on others.
And de’, The overriding search of the OP is to explore the validity of Keeping Scientology Working and to answer the question whether the practice of this policy would “keep Scientology working” or does it in fact work against the core value and destroy Scientology. Some of us, particularly I find the core understanding of myself being in harmony with pieces of Hubbard’s work and then totally at odds with other parts. Particularly, I am at odds with his work beginning with his religious assertions and his exaltation of the individual self to be at odds with my own experience of my spiritual path. In short, I seem not able to as-is the self and exalt the self all at once.
I don’t think that Hubbard fully sorted out the question of theta and thetan. It is an incomplete theory, which needs a lot more work before it is fully consistent.
Thetan symbolizes the self. It doesn’t answer what the nature of this self is.
I find self to be a consideration. Scientology tries to solidify this consideration of self by associating other considerations of abilities with it. This only serves to pit selves against each other.
As-is ness of self as practiced in Buddhism was anathema to Hubbard.
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Here is my understanding of
Scientology Axiom # 1
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very good my friend: and by now for me not only become the understanding, but because of sessions that underestanding become reality through experiences.
Youk now Chris , the first time I have read the axioms in 74 WOW WOW I cognited! and later they become reality… and who said auditing dont work? only those who have not had any or very little.
Right! But remember that you have used your own mind; your own intellect; and your own style of addressing the tech of auditing to accomplish your purpose.
The axioms of Scientology and really all of Scientology were the deepest subject that I had addressed into how I am the way that I am. I know I write a lot of critiques on Scientology but I never forget the help it has been to stimulate my mind and to validate my curiosity to seek the truth. Now I move from truth to truth (as I read on Vin’s blog) and life has never been better.
As you can see, I think, my ARCx’s don’t amount to much anymore in the way of upset — only point the way to new understanding.
you are changing… i can feel it…
Chris, this is the most wonderful post I have read from you. Very well said.
You have been a great help in stimulating my mind.
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Thanks to both of you. This is why I read every word you both write. It challenges the status quo of my mind.
This is an interesting conversation on Marty’s blog:
Marty-2364871
“The Master is very much alive on this thread… hehehe.”
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I took a look to see what you were talking about. A few weeks ago I spent a few minutes glancing at that blog as well. Before that it was about a year and a half ago when 5 of my attempted posts were censored by omission. I briefly read your posts and exchanges with the posters there as well as Marty Rathbun’s dismissive comment to you. I haven’t yet seen the movie — The Master. What did you want me to notice? And let me ask, what are you trying to do over there? I think I might know but you should say.
I was trying to engage them in a discussion on the knowledge in Scientology, Anyway, the links to Scientology Factor # 1 and Scientology Axiom # 1 are there, and some may wander to my blog for discussion.
I also wanted it on record how receptive they are to discussions on Scientology.
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Yes. That is what I thought. Well, you were successful.
I think that I found the big gaping hole in Hubbard’s THETA-MEST theory:
THE GAPING HOLE
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Having concluded posting about Scientology on another friend’s blog and having the worst possible time being understood, I decided to refurbish this thread about KSW and to take Maria’s advice to post up the entire text of the policy letter so that it’s easier to refer to original scripture for discussion. I’ve edited it pretty fast and it has not been checked so if you notice typos, etc., or other suggestions, please mention it and I’ll fix it up.
Keeping Scientology Working sound like Keeping Christianity Working. There is a strong undercurrent that this is the only way.
I find ‘mindfulness’ of Buddha to be a workable way that goes much deeper in attaining the goal of spirituality. But ‘mindfulness’ ultimately leads to the realization that even SELF is conditioned and impermanent. This was unacceptable to Hubbard. Hubbard did not take the route of mindfulness. Instead, Hubbard took the route of OT. See Identity versus Individuality.
The key characteristic of mindfulness is compassion. The key characteristic of OT seems to be ‘look at me’.
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My own Scientology enigma comes about when I compare my previously held opinions when I was a Scientologist to my more newly formed opinions. An example would be with regards to KSW, one of Hubbard’s many comments on the IQs of unbelievers such as psychologists is that they “cannot assimilate straight Scientology.” These people are objectified with adjectives such as stupid, open-minded, low IQ, and so forth.
I find this to be “code” for anyone who refuses to apply the 10 pts of KSW in the most severe manner. I can tell when this is happening, when I am in the presence of a true believer because once firmly ensconced in KSW, they can no longer understand any other point of view. By this I don’t mean that they simply disagree with non-believers in a rational way. They literally cannot understand how anyone else can think differently than through the filter of KSW.
When you wrote “Look at me” as a characteristic of OT, I thought of my children when bouncing on a trampoline hollering, “Watch me” or “Watch what I can do!” To be fair, in my opinion, this fixation on self is pivotal to all religion with which I am familiar. It is a piece of the mind that when activated can be used by both the true believer and by those wishing to control them. It is at the heart of the bar-less prison. At least, it surely was for me.
The OT characteristic is more than just ‘look at me’. It is a fixation on ‘look at me’.
No fixation = no aberration.
Fixation = aberration.
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Ah, that is an important distinction.
What do you suppose is the substantial difference between these two qualities of fixation vs no-fixation?
I think that any fixation is like the ‘held down seven’ that Hubbard talked about. It is taken up in every calculation even when it does not belong there.
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Ah! Now I get you and I can really use that.